Martial Arts Extinction

[puunui]

Shishi is like that.

Here, the term "shishi" means urine or to urinate. I thought it was a japanese term but I am not so sure because my wife (who is half chinese) grew up with that term as well from her chinese mother. In fact, when she was in kindergarten on the mainland, she wanted to go to the bathroom in school and told the teacher she wanted to go "shishi". The teacher did not know what she was talking about and she ended up peeing in her pants because of that misunderstanding. So in my mind I am wondering why a style would have that as part of its name.

 

[Zenjael]

Shishi baguazhang merges element of dog style gong fu with lion baguazhang. Lion-dog is a type of mythical beast, I believe also called a Quiron, or guardian lion--dogs. As baguazhang is often reactive, and thus self-defense oriented by nature, the association of styles and elements of philosophy I suppose ultimately ended up with it being named shishi (Mandarin Chinese) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardian_lion

I have been wrong on a number of things, and I admit I may be so now, but I understand that the name was derived from it using lion and dog style techniques for grounding. In this it received its name after the mythical animal.

 

[geezer]

Here, the term "shishi" means urine or to urinate.

"Shishi means "to Pee"? Sounds like a case of onomatapoeia... or is that onomato-pee-ia?

 

[Xue Sheng]

"Shishi means "to Pee"? Sounds like a case of onomatapoeia... or is that onomato-pee-ia?

actually I belevie it is the Mandarin version of potty

 

[puunui]

"Shishi means "to Pee"? Sounds like a case of onomatapoeia... or is that onomato-pee-ia?

As it happens I was on the telephone today with a native japanese speaker about something and asked her. She said that the proper japanese word would be "oshiko", and shishi would be a shortened slang version used for children.

 

[oaktree]

From what I've read thus far it seems there have been up to as many as 6 people taught circle walking by daoist priests either in passing, or through extended learning and initiation. Which is the real one? Are any?

Lots of claims are made of people training with Daoist priest in walking circle. Walking circle is a Daoist religious practice many people learn it and have nothing to do with Baguazhang at all. We do not even know if Dong Haichuan learned this directly from a certain Daoist sect or not, if he mixed his own style with it or what ever theories floating around.
Some say Dong Haichuan's teacher was Bi Deng Xia who also had 2 students
Song Yi Ren and Wing Wen Tian. Some say the other 2 students were Li, Zhen-Qing and Ma, Yun-Cheng (Bi Yue-Xia) So again there is not enough to go on its similar to Zhan San Feng.
http://ymaa.com/article/the-history-of-baguazhang
http://www.csghs.tp.edu.tw/~chic/page_m/n3-2.html
http://www.daoisms.org/article/sort015/info-50.html
http://www.artx.cn/artx/wushu/32455.html
http://qkzz.net/Announce/Announce.asp?BoardID=12200&ID=20854

As I said, it wasn't until around 1850 when shishi baguazhang became recognized as distinct, and as I also said, it shares elements with Yin style though is different. If there is a distinct origin to bagua, it came about long ago when people harmonized martial arts with daoist meditation techniques. I wouldn't be surprised, when people finally did recognize the style, that it can become confusing which styles originated when, definitively, in relation to others.

It is estimated Dong Hai Chuan taught in Beijing in the time period between 1850-1860. Given that Yin was born around 1840 and was taught late 1850's to 1860's
depending on who you ask. This would mean if Shi Shi Baguazhang was a distinct Bagua style it would 1.predate or be at the same time Dong Hai Chuan's Baguazhang style.
2. It could not share elements of Yin style because Yin Fu did not train in Baguazhang till late 1850's 1860's and most likely wasn't teaching for a bit since Ma Gui is considered Yin Fu earliest recorded student around mid 1870's.

 

[Zenjael]

Walking circle is a Daoist religious practice many people learn it and have nothing to do with Baguazhang at all.

I am happy to see someone who has their eyes so open to the history of baguazhang. A lot of people learn the art and only of a few masters before, I like that you have such an eye to detail.

It could not share elements of Yin style because Yin Fu did not train in Baguazhang till late 1850's 1860's and most likely wasn't teaching for a bit since Ma Gui is considered Yin Fu earliest recorded student around mid 1870's.

For me, the history of Bagua is murky. It seems there are two theories, historically, as to where Bagua could have originated. At least to me it seems to me these are the only alternatives; either it was founded by a person, or it is a coalescence of multiple styles, incorporating daoist tenets and practices. I feel that baguazhang as a style, being martial arts which had incorporated circle walking, was in existence long before the 18th century. When it came to 'exist' in the mid 19th century, I lean more toward it being finally recognized, as opposed to suddenly being conjured up. Every now and again a very obscure style will appear, or reappear, though this of course is not related to just baguazhang.

I believe baguazhang, or elements close enough to be akin to how Taekyon is to Tae Kwon Do, that one can say Baguazhang existed prior to the 1940s. It is incredibly difficult to create a style, merged from others. Not impossible, but the story just doesn't add up to me, as a historian.

 

[oaktree]

I am happy to see someone who has their eyes so open to the history of baguazhang. A lot of people learn the art and only of a few masters before, I like that you have such an eye to detail.

I am not as well versed in Baguazhang history to me it is boring as Taijiquan history. Circle walking in Daoism is called Zhou Tian Shu 周天术 Circle of Heaven.
It is not so much a Baguazhang exercise it is according to stories a source, factor, influence that may had a hand in Dong Haichuan creating Baguazhang.
We do see circle walking as done as early as Chou dynasty with the dance of Yu. As of yet there is not enough evidence to support anything before Dong Haichuan or is not some how connected with Dong Haichuan or his line.

For me, the history of Bagua is murky. It seems there are two theories, historically, as to where Bagua could have originated. At least to me it seems to me these are the only alternatives; either it was founded by a person, or it is a coalescence of multiple styles, incorporating daoist tenets and practices.

Again we do not know if Dong Haichuan learned from Daoist, people who claim they were Daoist, did he mix it with a style he already knew or was it already created for him,
Did other people influence him when he was in Beijing.
The circle walking he may have learned may have looked like this:

I think the history of Baguazhang will be like Taijiquan we just don't have enough to go on.

 

[oaktree]

I feel that baguazhang as a style, being martial arts which had incorporated circle walking, was in existence long before the 18th century. When it came to 'exist' in the mid 19th century, I lean more toward it being finally recognized, as opposed to suddenly being conjured up. Every now and again a very obscure style will appear, or reappear, though this of course is not related to just baguazhang.

It may have been but as of yet no proof to support it or it may have died out. What evidence do you have that supports Baguazhang existed before Dong Haichuan?

I believe baguazhang, or elements close enough to be akin to how Taekyon is to Tae Kwon Do, that one can say Baguazhang existed prior to the 1940s. It is incredibly difficult to create a style, merged from others. Not impossible, but the story just doesn't add up to me, as a historian.

What elements prior to Dong Haichuan show that there was a baguazhang prototype? We have theories but no evidence to support it.
In fact we have contradicting stories that Dong Haichuan knew only 2 palms, or he created the Bagua palms with his previous martial art training to learning 8 palm changes.

 

[mukashimantis]

You may find it hard to back that up, you know... especially when it comes to the Japanese systems. But, for the record, jujutsu isn't what has become extinct in some forms, but specific Ryu of jujutsu are. There's quite a distinction there...


Not hard to back up at all. I have been researching various MA's for many years. I can tell you that ( as a historian ) , more of knowledge is lost than we have records of, prior to the last 10 years or so. While some areas of knowlewdge are better documented, many martial arts were not. Whether due to secrecy, lack of forethought, or the idea that things will last forever. Look at the US Apollo moon missions, and the loss of material knowledge there. If you haven't already, try finding written records of JiuJitsu styles or other systems. A previous poster mentioned a list of Ryu that are known to be lost. Those Ryu may have had different styles of their respective arts.



Really bad choice of system there, you know... really bad. And you'll find a number of posters here who can answer it quite emphatically on that point.

.

 

[frank raud]

I believe baguazhang, or elements close enough to be akin to how Taekyon is to Tae Kwon Do, that one can say Baguazhang existed prior to the 1940s. It is incredibly difficult to create a style, merged from others. Not impossible, but the story just doesn't add up to me, as a historian.[/QUOTE]

As a historian, you find it difficult to beleive that a style could be made up of other styles? Are you familiar with the history of judo(Mixture of Kito-ryu and Tenshin-ryu, with a mix of techniques from other styles) Wado-ryu(karate and Jiu jutsu), kajukenbo, Tae Kwon Do, etc. etc, etc.? Most arts are a composite of other arts, the succesful ones stick around, the less successful either become extinct or merged into another style and are no longer practiced as a separate art. As well, there is no connection between Taekyon and Tae Kwon do.

 

[Instructor]

I believe baguazhang, or elements close enough to be akin to how Taekyon is to Tae Kwon Do, that one can say Baguazhang existed prior to the 1940s. It is incredibly difficult to create a style, merged from others. Not impossible, but the story just doesn't add up to me, as a historian.

As a historian, you find it difficult to beleive that a style could be made up of other styles? Are you familiar with the history of judo(Mixture of Kito-ryu and Tenshin-ryu, with a mix of techniques from other styles) Wado-ryu(karate and Jiu jutsu), kajukenbo, Tae Kwon Do, etc. etc, etc.? Most arts are a composite of other arts, the succesful ones stick around, the less successful either become extinct or merged into another style and are no longer practiced as a separate art. As well, there is no connection between Taekyon and Tae Kwon do.

In a way all styles are built upon or inspired by other styles. No style is created in a vacuum. Each has built on what came before it from the beginning till now. If you start at the leaves and follow the twigs to the branches and the branches to the limbs...sooner or later you will get to the roots. Great respect for Bagua by the way.

 

[Zenjael]

As a historian, you find it difficult to beleive that a style could be made up of other styles?

Not in the least, we are in agreement, I believe most styles originated from past styles. The term dying out seems a bit crude, it seems to me most arts evolve into new manifestations, growing, and changing from teacher to student, and so on.

Success is an arbitrary word. Is Wing Chun more successful than Ninjutsu, or MMA? I think the term worthless. If the art exists, than its truth will be expressed through the practitioner.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taekwondo

The history section more or less supports popular theory for where TKD originated.

In a way all styles are built upon or inspired by other styles. No style is created in a vacuum. Each has built on what came before it from the beginning till now. If you start at the leaves and follow the twigs to the branches and the branches to the limbs...sooner or later you will get to the roots. Great respect for Bagua by the way.

It is true, the more you learn, the more you return to the basics full circle, and in turn, grow more.

 

[Chris Parker]

Here, the term "shishi" means urine or to urinate. I thought it was a japanese term but I am not so sure because my wife (who is half chinese) grew up with that term as well from her chinese mother. In fact, when she was in kindergarten on the mainland, she wanted to go to the bathroom in school and told the teacher she wanted to go "shishi". The teacher did not know what she was talking about and she ended up peeing in her pants because of that misunderstanding. So in my mind I am wondering why a style would have that as part of its name.

As it happens I was on the telephone today with a native japanese speaker about something and asked her. She said that the proper japanese word would be "oshiko", and shishi would be a shortened slang version used for children.

The thing to remember with Japanese is that the language is made up of only about 24 syllables, so such blanket comments really can't be made without knowing the context and kanji associated... for instance, "Shishi" can also be "to turn and face", amongst other things, including the guard Lion-dogs.

 

[frank raud]

Not in the least, we are in agreement, I believe most styles originated from past styles. The term dying out seems a bit crude, it seems to me most arts evolve into new manifestations, growing, and changing from teacher to student, and so on.

If you believe most styles originated from past styles, how can you state It is incredibly difficult to create a style, merged from others. Not impossible, but the story just doesn't add up to me, as a historian.

Can be one or the other, either most styles come from a combination or evolution of other styles or they don't.
Success is an arbitrary word. Is Wing Chun more successful than Ninjutsu, or MMA? I think the term worthless. If the art exists, than its truth will be expressed through the practitioner. wikipedia.org/wiki/Taekwondo


The history section more or less supports popular theory for where TKD originated.

As a historian, I hope you can recognise the difference between folk tales and facts



It is true, the more you learn, the more you return to the basics full circle, and in turn, grow more.

Many arts evolve, but many arts die out. Family arts die when the next generation is not interested.

 

[pgsmith]

Many arts evolve, but many arts die out. Family arts die when the next generation is not interested.

I think it is mainly a matter of semantics. In my opinion, very few arts have died out. However, many, many schools and lines of an art have died out. For example, Kage ryu is a school of kenjutsu which utilizes a very large sword, which they call a chokken. It is on the verge of dying out as it is difficult to master, and there is not much interest from the younger generation in carrying the school on. When it dies that school will be extinct, but the art of kenjutsu will still be alive through other schools.

 

[puunui]

The thing to remember with Japanese is that the language is made up of only about 24 syllables, so such blanket comments really can't be made without knowing the context and kanji associated... for instance, "Shishi" can also be "to turn and face", amongst other things, including the guard Lion-dogs.

I didn't make any "blanket statements" about the Japanese language. We are talking about a chinese martial art name. And I did the google search thing too, and I have lion dogs at my house. My point (which I think you missed), was subtle, but I think others picked up on it, so it's ok.

 

[Xue Sheng]

As I said...shishi (pinyin - xixi) is used in Beijing Mandarin meaning potty...meaning said to small childern

Where is the Bathroom in Mandarin = Xi shou jian zai nar

Ergo for a small child it has become XiXi (sheeshee)

 

[itto_seki]

I think it is mainly a matter of semantics. In my opinion, very few arts have died out. However, many, many schools and lines of an art have died out. For example, Kage ryu is a school of kenjutsu which utilizes a very large sword, which they call a chokken. It is on the verge of dying out as it is difficult to master, and there is not much interest from the younger generation in carrying the school on. When it dies that school will be extinct, but the art of kenjutsu will still be alive through other schools.

Hello, a couple of things that I'd like to point out. Kage ryu is a battojutsu art, so it's drawing with the longsword or choken. Secondly, there are a small number of students who still train in the art, so I wouldn't say that it's on the verge of dying out (I'm a bit of an optimist).

 

[Chris Parker]

I didn't make any "blanket statements" about the Japanese language. We are talking about a chinese martial art name. And I did the google search thing too, and I have lion dogs at my house. My point (which I think you missed), was subtle, but I think others picked up on it, so it's ok.

You stated that:

Here, the term "shishi" means urine or to urinate. I thought it was a japanese term but I am not so sure because my wife (who is half chinese) grew up with that term as well from her chinese mother.

followed by:

As it happens I was on the telephone today with a native japanese speaker about something and asked her. She said that the proper japanese word would be "oshiko", and shishi would be a shortened slang version used for children.

So you have attributed a Japanese usage to a (Chinese) term without even knowing the characters used to write it, stating as a fact that "here, the term means", when there was really no evidence at all. The implication was that the term "shishi" could only have the one interpretation, which is a blanket statement as regards to the word, which you were giving a Japanese reference.

As regards your point, you seemed to be wanting to belittle the system that Alex was claiming, but your method was flawed from the outset on a range of points. That was my point. Maybe you missed it.

Hello, a couple of things that I'd like to point out. Kage ryu is a battojutsu art, so it's drawing with the longsword or choken. Secondly, there are a small number of students who still train in the art, so I wouldn't say that it's on the verge of dying out (I'm a bit of an optimist).

With the Kage Ryu, there are really only a handful of aging members left, with little interest in the younger generation in continuing the art, which I feel is what Paul was talking about. There have been seminars on the system (in Canada, at least), but not much more. Honestly, I agree with Paul that the system is in danger of dying out, but, like you, I remain hopeful that it will manage to continue.