Martial Artist Vs Warrior

[Brad Dunne]

A True martial artist is one that doesn't need to display his knowledge for others to see. You will never know that he/she is special or has any kind of knowledge that the person next to them doesn't know. The true martial artist blends in and is in complete control of their own mind and body.

This was copied from another thread looking for what a martial artist is. I am only using this as a starting point, because there was not much input on the subject. So using this defination, the following question becomes the subject of this thread.

Do people who train to fight, MMA's folks (ie; UFC, Pride, K-1 and so on), and even those that only venture into the tournament settings, would they be considered martial artists or just gladiators/fighters?

 

[Rook]

Warriors are members of the militaries of nation states. You find them in barracks not in dojos. There may be some degree of overlap, but practicing a martial art does not make you a warrior and being a military member does not make you a martial artist. The two are no longer interchangable and perhaps never were.

 

[MJS]

Thread moved to General Martial Arts

Mike Slosek
MT Supermod

 

[Sapper6]

Warriors are members of the militaries of nation states. You find them in barracks not in dojos. There may be some degree of overlap, but practicing a martial art does not make you a warrior and being a military member does not make you a martial artist. The two are no longer interchangable and perhaps never were.

agreed.

furthermore, MMA fighters should NOT be considered "warriors" or "gladiators". they are far from it. a better definition would be "athlete". their athletisism is obvious, warriorship, not so much.

 

[Rook]

agreed.

furthermore, MMA fighters should NOT be considered "warriors" or "gladiators". they are far from it. a better definition would be "athlete". their athletisism is obvious, warriorship, not so much.

Agreed.

 

[Blindside]

A True martial artist is one that doesn't need to display his knowledge for others to see. You will never know that he/she is special or has any kind of knowledge that the person next to them doesn't know. The true martial artist blends in and is in complete control of their own mind and body.

Do people who train to fight, MMA's folks (ie; UFC, Pride, K-1 and so on), and even those that only venture into the tournament settings, would they be considered martial artists or just gladiators/fighters?

Idealize much???

The term "martial" means of or dealing with war, which is what a warrior is. Warriors use martial arts, its what they do, swinging a sword, shooting a gun, or piloting a fighter are all martial arts in the truest sense of the word.

If you want to expand that definition to include the descendents of the true martial arts (kendo or fencing from their original battlefield structures, muay thai from krabi krabong, judo from jujitsu, etc) then the guy who gets into the ring is at least as much of a martial artist as is some idealized Grasshopper or Grandmaster Po. "Martial arts" describe skills. That SOME practitioners have added moral or social ideals to their training is fine, but it is the skills that determine how good a "martial artist" you are.

Lamont

 

[SFC JeffJ]

I've associated, as I'm sure most people here have, with a lot of Martial Artists that think of themselves as warriors. Heck, I can name a couple of very high ranking ones who kept going on how they should send them to Afganistan after 9/11. Of course they had no military experience, let alone combat. Mostly that type just ends up looking foolish.

Jeff

 

[Kacey]

Martial artists are, IMO, more than warriors, although they may be warriors as well.

Warriors are people who go to war, who fight, generally because someone above them tells them where, when, and how... often without including any detailed discussion of why.

Martial artists, in general, go beyond this - many martial arts include a moral code that involves protecting the weak, improving the world, etc. - they choose when, and how, and why to fight, and only fight for a cause (self-preservation, preservation of others, for personal moral reasons, etc.) rather than because someone else tells them to - unless, of course, they are in the military, law enforcement, or other career which requires them to fight where directed. The moral component of martial arts training goes beyond the fighting training provided to warriors, as does the range of options available to the average martial artists; warriors are often taught to kill as quickly as possible with as little risk to self as possible, while martial artists are taught a wider range of skills with a wider range of options, from discouragement to minor damage to major damage/disablement to maiming to killing, and everything in between. This is not meant to disparage the training of the average warrior, but does point out the difference in skills gained when the training extends over a significantly greater time.

 

[Rook]

I've associated, as I'm sure most people here have, with a lot of Martial Artists that think of themselves as warriors. Heck, I can name a couple of very high ranking ones who kept going on how they should send them to Afganistan after 9/11. Of course they had no military experience, let alone combat. Mostly that type just ends up looking foolish.

Exactly. When I go to page through martial arts books at bookstores, I find racks of stuff on "modern warriorship," "the hagakure for the 21st century" etc. and then when I look at the dust jacket, the author has never served in any military unit in any capacity and sees fit to lecture everyone else on "the martial way."

Personally, I don't think of myself, and never had thought of myself as a warrior. I sometimes feel guilt that people I know have been in combat in Iraq and Afganistan and I did not choose to join the military and probably never will. Over time, I think of myself less even as a martial artist and more as someone who does martial arts.

 

[SFC JeffJ]

Exactly. When I go to page through martial arts books at bookstores, I find racks of stuff on "modern warriorship," "the hagakure for the 21st century" etc. and then when I look at the dust jacket, the author has never served in any military unit in any capacity and sees fit to lecture everyone else on "the martial way."

Personally, I don't think of myself, and never had thought of myself as a warrior. I sometimes feel guilt that people I know have been in combat in Iraq and Afganistan and I did not choose to join the military and probably never will. Over time, I think of myself less even as a martial artist and more as someone who does martial arts.

Big pet peeves of mine there.

Also, there is no reason for you to feel guilty. We live in a mostly free society, and there is no reason for you to serve if you don't want too. There is no guilt in not serving or not having been in combat, it's just a different choice than the ones Matt, Wade, myself and many others have made.

 

[stone_dragone]

Again, I am reminded to break out my copy of "Living the Martial Way."

Highly recommended for any who want to discuss warriorship. At least that's my opinion as a soldier and a martial artist. Usually found on the shelves of Barnes and Noble, Books-a-Million and always on Amazon.

 

[searcher]

Warriors are members of the militaries of nation states. You find them in barracks not in dojos.

I disagree. Being in the military does bot make you a warrior. It makes you a soldier. You can be a warrior and a soldier, but just by being a soldier you are NOT automatically a warrior. A warrior is beyond being a soldier, it is being an elite. And you don't have to be a soldier to be a warrior.

I say this because I know some clerks and other members of our military that are a far cry from being warriors, but are still classified as soldiers. There are people of this world who have fought in wars without being soldiers and they are warriors.

JMHO.

 

[Sapper6]

I disagree. Being in the military does bot make you a warrior. It makes you a soldier. You can be a warrior and a soldier, but just by being a soldier you are NOT automatically a warrior. A warrior is beyond being a soldier, it is being an elite. And you don't have to be a soldier to be a warrior.

I say this because I know some clerks and other members of our military that are a far cry from being warriors, but are still classified as soldiers. There are people of this world who have fought in wars without being soldiers and they are warriors.

JMHO.

agree somewhat.

hey now, don't be crackin' on the clerks! the personnel clerk is a soldier's best friend, after his weapon of course.

 

[jks9199]

Again, I am reminded to break out my copy of "Living the Martial Way."

Highly recommended for any who want to discuss warriorship. At least that's my opinion as a soldier and a martial artist. Usually found on the shelves of Barnes and Noble, Books-a-Million and always on Amazon.

I can't recommend Col. Morgan's book strongly enough -- if you are serious about being a warrior. And having a reasonable definition of it.

Being a warrior goes beyond simply practicing a martial art, serving in the military or law enforcement, or playing games. It's about how you live, and the responsiblity you accept for and in your life.

 

[Darth F.Takeda]

One can live by a code, like a Warrior. I do feel only those who have gone through a few life and death scrapes in or out of actual war,and showed a certian above the pale valor or ability in those situations, should be able to call themselves a Warrior. Any one else needs to be called a warrior, by a warrior, to be called a warrior.
Do you have to be in a Military to be a Warrior or fight in a war between nations to be a Warrior?
No, even some gangmembers could be considerd warriors, some cops are warriors.
MMA fighters as warriors? Well, not in the context of their sport, but they can and many do live like warriors.
A Martial artisit can live like a warrior, but I do think they have to be someone that does it as a lifestyle, not a hobby, and they train for killing/stopping/hurting bad people. This is why I never call myself a Budoka, I train to be Bugai. I fully expect bad things to happen and I train to stop it. AikiJujutsu and Combat Jujutsu are Bugai arts, even in the modern world. Harmony is nice, and can and should be attained, but the mindset on the mats for me is based around fighting 1st, everthing else comes from the disciplin and those you meet on the mats.
My Sensei says that some people, no matter their profession, have warrior in them, they just cant help it. These are the people who hold up well in a fight. He says the most important trait of a fighter can not be taught to us by him. You have to have "it", maybe your born with it, or it develops from exp. I can happen on the mats, but it's reallly what has happend off them that makes "it".
I have not been in war, I have defended my life a few times, but I never say " I am a Warrior" but I do try to live like one. ( My asthma makes me unable to enlist in Combat arms, which is why I am nopt off, earning the title.)

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Martial artists are, IMO, more than warriors, although they may be warriors as well.

Warriors are people who go to war, who fight, generally because someone above them tells them where, when, and how... often without including any detailed discussion of why.

Martial artists, in general, go beyond this - many martial arts include a moral code that involves protecting the weak, improving the world, etc. - they choose when, and how, and why to fight, and only fight for a cause...

Respectfully :asian: While I understand your point, I dont agree with some of this. Most Martial Artists are average citizens, they are not super heros going out on the streets living by their warrior codes, "deciding when to fight" evildoers and making the world safe for democracy. The only "choosing" they have regarding fighting is staying withing the limits of the law regarding self defense. The same as any other non-martial artist. In general most MA schools would serve their students better by sparing the "warrior code" mumbo jumbo and teach some basic law. Martial arts does have benefits for the average citizen in terms of awareness, self-confidence and unarmed fighting skills but lets not swell our heads. Into thinking we are "warriors".

Soldiers, LE, etc. did "make a choice" when they enlisted or took their jobs. They decided that they were willing to suborn their own personal freedoms and risk their lives for the freedoms of others. And in our age, they do it when they dont really have to. Most martial artists, like any smart citizen only fights when absolutely necessary. A "warrior" fights our enemies "under orders" so WE will hopefully never be forced to face them. Thats his "cause". A martial artist who honestly believes that they are on equal combative ground with a soldier or an armed professional is a fool living in a fools paradise.

And the military (at least the American military) does have a "code" of conduct and adheres to their own standards of behavior and ethics:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1][SIZE=+1]The Six Articles of The Code of Conduct[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]I am an American, fighting in the forces which guard my country and our way
of life. I am prepared to give my life in their defense.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command, I will never
surrender the members of my command while they still have the means to
resist.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]If I am captured, I will continue to resist by all means available. I will
make every effort to escape and aid others to escape. I will accept neither
parole nor special favors from the enemy.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]If I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners.
I will give no information or take part in any action which might be
harmful to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not, I will
obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me, and will back them up in
every way.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give
only name, rank, service number, and date of birth. I will evade answering
further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or
written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to
their cause.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]I will never forget that I am an American, fighting for freedom,
responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my
country free. I will trust in my God and in the United States of America.
[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Soldier's Creed[/FONT]

I am an American Soldier.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
I am a Warrior and a member of a team. I serve the people of the United States and live the Army Values.

I will always place the mission first.
I will never accept defeat.
I will never quit.
I will never leave a fallen comrade.

I am disciplined, physically and mentally tough, trained and proficient in my warrior tasks and drills. I always maintain my arms, my equipment and myself.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
I am an expert and I am a professional.

I stand ready to deploy, engage, and destroy the enemies of the United States of America in close combat.

I am a guardian of freedom and the American way of life.

I am an American Soldier.

[/FONT]

THE SEVEN ARMY VALUES

Bear true faith and allegiance to the U.S. Constitution, the Army, your unit and other Soldiers. Bearing true faith and allegiance is a matter of believing in and devoting yourself to something or someone. A loyal Soldier is one who supports the leadership and stands up for fellow Soldiers. By wearing the uniform of the U.S. Army you are expressing your loyalty. And by doing your share, you show your loyalty to your unit.

Fulfill your obligations. Doing your duty means more than carrying out your assigned tasks. Duty means being able to accomplish tasks as part of a team. The work of the U.S. Army is a complex combination of missions, tasks and responsibilities—all in constant motion. Our work entails building one assignment onto another. You fulfill your obligations as a part of your unit every time you resist the temptation to take “shortcuts” that might undermine the integrity of the final product.

Treat people as they should be treated. In the Soldier’s Code, we pledge to “treat others with dignity and respect while expecting others to do the same.” Respect is what allows us to appreciate the best in other people. Respect is trusting that all people have done their jobs and fulfilled their duty. And self-respect is a vital ingredient with the Army value of respect, which results from knowing you have put forth your best effort. The Army is one team and each of us has something to contribute.

Put the welfare of the Nation, the Army and your subordinates before your own. Selfless service is larger than just one person. In serving your country, you are doing your duty loyally without thought of recognition or gain. The basic building block of selfless service is the commitment of each team member to go a little further, endure a little longer, and look a little closer to see how he or she can add to the effort.

Live up to Army values. The Nation’s highest military award is The Medal of Honor. This award goes to Soldiers who make honor a matter of daily living—Soldiers who develop the habit of being honorable, and solidify that habit with every value choice they make. Honor is a matter of carrying out, acting, and living the values of respect, duty, loyalty, selfless service, integrity and personal courage in everything you do.

Do what’s right, legally and morally. Integrity is a quality you develop by adhering to moral principles. It requires that you do and say nothing that deceives others. As your integrity grows, so does the trust others place in you. The more choices you make based on integrity, the more this highly prized value will affect your relationships with family and friends, and, finally, the fundamental acceptance of yourself.

Face fear, danger or adversity (physical or moral). Personal courage has long been associated with our Army. With physical courage, it is a matter of enduring physical duress and at times risking personal safety. Facing moral fear or adversity may be a long, slow process of continuing forward on the right path, especially if taking those actions is not popular with others. You can build your personal courage by daily standing up for and acting upon the things that you know are honorable.

When I went through Basic and Advanced training I had far more formal instruction in "codes" "ethics" and "values" than I EVER had in any martial arts class I ever participated in, observed, or heard of from someone else.

 

[Kacey]

I appreciate your response, and will address your points one at a time. I think perhaps that more of our disagreement is semantics and personal experience than actual disagreement.

Respectfully :asian: While I understand your point, I dont agree with some of this. Most Martial Artists are average citizens, they are not super heros going out on the streets living by their warrior codes, "deciding when to fight" evildoers and making the world safe for democracy.

If I implied that they were, then I apologize; let me expand my answer thusly: because of what I learned through TKD, helping to teach classes and then teaching a class of my own, I chose to become a teacher - my answer to building a better world. Not through warfare - but through education - and not because I think of my self as a superhero, but because the best way to build a better world - to make it safe for democracy, if you choose to look at that way - is to teach the next generation. I also do this when I teach TKD, by demonstrating to my students (many of them children and teens) how to persevere, to make and reach goals, to be willing to try difficult things, and so on.

The only "choosing" they have regarding fighting is staying withing the limits of the law regarding self defense. The same as any other non-martial artist.

See above. There are many ways to "fight" without being involved in a physical altercation.

In general most MA schools would serve their students better by sparing the "warrior code" mumbo jumbo and teach some basic law.

I do teach some basic law... I also teach some "'warrior code' mumbo jumbo" that looks amazingly like the code of ethics you cited in your post, which many people don't learn anywhere else. The basis of this code is:

Tenets
Courtesy
Integrity
Perseverance
Self-control
Indomitable Spirit

Student Oath
I shall observe the Tenets of Taekwon-Do
I shall respect my instructors and seniors
I shall never misuse Taekwon-Do
I shall be a champion of freedom and justice
I shall build a more peaceful world

There are many ways in which such a code can be implemented, and they are discussed periodically in class, including variations based on the age, gender, and experience of the students in the class - I would, for example, expect a different response from a 10 year-old than an adult, despite all being taught the same legal and moral codes.

Martial arts does have benefits for the average citizen in terms of awareness, self-confidence and unarmed fighting skills but lets not swell our heads. Into thinking we are "warriors".

Again, see above. I have never "swelled my head", although I have known students who have. But my definition of "warrior" encompasses more than simply martial skill.

Soldiers, LE, etc. did "make a choice" when they enlisted or took their jobs. They decided that they were willing to suborn their own personal freedoms and risk their lives for the freedoms of others. And in our age, they do it when they dont really have to. Most martial artists, like any smart citizen only fights when absolutely necessary. A "warrior" fights our enemies "under orders" so WE will hopefully never be forced to face them. Thats his "cause". A martial artist who honestly believes that they are on equal combative ground with a soldier or an armed professional is a fool living in a fools paradise.

Here is the distinction I was attempting to make. I, as a private individual, regardless of training, can choose to enter a situation or not. As a member of the armed forces, that choice is often taken away. The broad choice, to choose to join the armed forces and fight for one's country, has been made, but the choice of when, where, and how to engage in that fight is not, to my understanding, left to the individual soldiers to decide; they go where their orders send them. Nor did I ever claim, that I recall, that the average martial artist was on "equal combative ground with a soldier or an armed professional" - but while I have not served in the armed forces, I know many people who have, including quite a few of my TKD students, who told me, without exception, that they were taught little, if anything, other than how to kill quickly, and had little recourse other than killing, as they lacked alternative skills - and learning alternative skills, for situations in which killing was not needed, was one of their reasons for learning a martial art. If things have changed since I was given this information, then I do apologize, but that is the information on which I was basing my statement.

And the military (at least the American military) does have a "code" of conduct and adheres to their own standards of behavior and ethics:

When I went through Basic and Advanced training I had far more formal instruction in "codes" "ethics" and "values" than I EVER had in any martial arts class I ever participated in, observed, or heard of from someone else.

I have already given my basis for disagreement with this statement; I will say that different styles, and different organizations and even classes within styles, have been known to teach different things in different levels of concentration. I will also point out that quite a few people see no reason whatever for martial arts instructors to teach any aspects of morality, a position I find irresponsible, at best.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Most (not all people, I didnt say all) martial arts "warriors" know as much about "war" or facing real violence/danger as a Kendo practitioner has experience in killing with a sword. And thank God that is so. Thats the kind of world I want for my children.

Most folks are scared to death about real violence and the martial arts serve as a "blankie". Never try to take the blankie away from a frightened kiddie.

 

[Monadnock]

A True martial artist is one that doesn't need to display his knowledge for others to see. You will never know that he/she is special or has any kind of knowledge that the person next to them doesn't know. The true martial artist blends in and is in complete control of their own mind and body.

You could almost substitute any kind of person who has undergone some sort of disciplined training for a substantial amount of time. The tea ceremony student, the painter, etc. Some type of practice that actually forces the practitioner to look inward, instead of show off outward.

But I think these people WILL stand out. Just not in the way you would think. And they have a duty to behave in a certain way when required, not only for their own benefit, but for society's. Martial arts isn't about defeating others, but defeating the Self. If you have mastered yourself, that is, in control of mind and body as you stated, shouldn't it be easy to be able to adapt to any situation you are confronted with? This is not limited to the Martial Artist.

So, as to the warrior, I think that is just someone who is fighting in a war, or training to do so. But you cannot stop, or shut it off. The warrior trains and lives prepared as if battle is eminent any minute. If I went to war now, and lived to be 70, I would not call myself a warrior at 70. Maybe I could say I was a warrior, but most likely at 70, I am not, unless I am continuing to train as I did when I was a warrior.

Most martial artists are not warriors and if they are, it is due to some military training. There are no samurai or ninja alive today. So we can get that out of our heads. We may practice arts that comprise what they might have done, but we are not them.

 

[Tez3]

I was concerned at one point that this thread was going to be anti MMA. The word 'wariior' along with the words 'gentleman' and 'lady' seem to have different meanings to different people and all three words are quite often considered an old fashioned concept. Perhaps a warrior is a fighter not necessarily in the physical sense but someone who battles on bravely doing what they consider right? Someone with warrior spirit might be a more accurate description than just saying someone is a warrior.I don't think you can put people in boxes and say oh he's a warrior because of blah blah blah and they're not because of blah blah blah! I think you look at someone and if they are a warrior it's just there! Same as if a man is a true gentleman or a woman a lady, it's just there, inborn mostly and refined perhaps by upbringing or teaching.