Martial Art vs. Sport (again)

[puunui]

Then there's the wide variety of martial arts that have no sporting aspect to them whatsoever. The vast majority of Koryu, for instance. The various Ninjutsu organisations. Taichi. Meifu Shinkage Ryu. Aikido (aside from Tomiki). And so on, and so on, and so on....

Do any of the above mentioned arts have the following as all or at least part of their philosophy?

Olympism is a philosophy of life, exalting and combining in a balanced whole the
qualities of body, will and mind. Blending sport with culture and education, Olympism
seeks to create a way of life based on the joy of effort, the educational value of good
example, social responsibility and respect for universal fundamental ethical principles.

 

[clfsean]

Actually Taiji organizations across the world hold tui shou competitions all the time.

The Chen Village has in the past held a nice big one to allow all comers to come get smushed.

However... tui shou competition isn't the focus of taiji quan. It's a part of & a good way to have fun tossing people about with seriously hurting them most of the time. It's a small part. Tui Shou as a sporting aspect is miniscule compared to tui shou for practice. There's nothing for winning medals, Olympic or otherwise, in the foundation of taiji quan.

I can't speak the rest of the arts listed by Chris, but no... none of that applies to Chen Taiji Quan in my practice & experiences.

 

[mastercole]

Do any of the above mentioned arts have the following as all or at least part of their philosophy?

Olympism is a philosophy of life, exalting and combining in a balanced whole the
qualities of body, will and mind. Blending sport with culture and education, Olympism
seeks to create a way of life based on the joy of effort, the educational value of good
example, social responsibility and respect for universal fundamental ethical principles.

That great majority of martial arts practitioners may never enter a tournament or test their martial art in a competitive sport arena. However, the fact that they are participating in the physical, mental, spiritual and/or artistic development of of the self, through the physical, mental, spiritual and/or artistic practices of martial arts, means they are participating in sport. Competitive or non-competitive does not matter, all martial arts are sports, according to the principles of both martial arts, and sports.

Also, as soon as you test your skill against another practitioner, in any setting, now you are participating in a competitive sport. If a martial artist takes a physical test for rank, they are participating in a competitive sport.

We can even say that trying to improve your physical skill in anyway is a competitive sport.

To many confuse "sport" with "competitive sport"

 

[puunui]

I can't speak the rest of the arts listed by Chris, but no... none of that applies to Chen Taiji Quan in my practice & experiences.

What is the focus and philosophy of chen taiji quan from your perspective?

 

[miguksaram]

Actually Taiji organizations across the world hold tui shou competitions all the time.

Doesn't Taiji also have Push Hands competition?

On another note...I believe Aikido also has some sort of competition as well. I thought I remember seeing something on YouTube not too long ago.

Ninjas have their own tournaments too, but no one can ever see them.....their ninjas after all. (Note: Just a bit of humor)

 

[clfsean]

What is the focus and philosophy of chen taiji quan from your perspective?

It's a martial art. To break people when necessary.

That's the way it's been practiced in Chen Village since it was formulated/developed. It was used to defend the village & has worked pretty ok. The village is still there since being founded by the Chen family.

 

[clfsean]

Doesn't Taiji also have Push Hands competition?

yeah sorry.... tui shou == push hands

 

[terryl965]

Glen can I ask what is your point of this thread. I only see it as starting the war once again about sport vs. art?

But I will play the game as always every single martial art out there has a bit of sport in it and probaly more than most will like, see I see a sport vs. art as one thing sport has a rule set that must be followed and the art it self has absolutely none in a life or death stituation. Since all of the above does some type of hands on training they must follow the rules of the dojo-dojaang or workout room, hence a sport on the floor.

I know some will dis-agree but seriously this horse has been beaten to death.

 

[puunui]

what is your point of this thread.

I don't want the other thread to get derailed, so I am thinking more about the other thread than this one. If this one goes short and dies a quick death, then ok; if it goes long, at least all of it is in one place.

 

[puunui]

It's a martial art. To break people when necessary. That's the way it's been practiced in Chen Village since it was formulated/developed. It was used to defend the village & has worked pretty ok. The village is still there since being founded by the Chen family.

How does Yang taiji compare in terms of focus and philosophy? I ask because it is said that Moo Duk Kwan GM HWANG Ki spent time in Manchuria and learned that from a Master YANG Kukjin.

 

[terryl965]

I don't want the other thread to get derailed, so I am thinking more about the other thread than this one. If this one goes short and dies a quick death, then ok; if it goes long, at least all of it is in one place.

Ok got it, for a minute I thought this was another one of those 1,743 threads argueing the sport vs art thing again.

Let me ask you this question though would you not agree any thing that has a rule set should be consider a sport instead of an art?

 

[puunui]

Let me ask you this question though would you not agree any thing that has a rule set should be consider a sport instead of an art?

I don't distinguish between sport and art. I personally don't believe thinking in such terms benefits anyone, especially taekwondoin.

 

[terryl965]

I don't distinguish between sport and art. I personally don't believe thinking in such terms benefits anyone, especially taekwondoin.

Then lets say I am a wanting to join your school and need you to tell me what is the difference between sport TKD and Art TKD, how would you go about it?

By the way thanks for taking the time to answer this because sometimes I have a hard time finding the right way of explaining to potentail students.

 

[puunui]

Then lets say I am a wanting to join your school and need you to tell me what is the difference between sport TKD and Art TKD, how would you go about it?

I tell them there is no difference, that taekwondo is taekwondo. But I don't think I have ever had someone come in and ask me that.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I tell them there is no difference, that taekwondo is taekwondo. But I don't think I have ever had someone come in and ask me that.

Funny, we get people ask that all the time. I can honestly say one of the first two or three questions a new student will ask is "is this sport tkd?", or "what is sport tkd?". I think because all over the internet now on everything from martial arts forums to things like yahoo answers and other martial arts chat lines the term "sport tkd" is becoming very common. There is a club down the road from where I used to live that actually says "sports tkd" on the big banner hanging out the front. It could just be a regional thing though, I can only speak on behalf of clubs over here obviously.

 

[mastercole]

Then lets say I am a wanting to join your school and need you to tell me what is the difference between sport TKD and Art TKD, how would you go about it?

By the way thanks for taking the time to answer this because sometimes I have a hard time finding the right way of explaining to potentail students.

Of the thousands of students I have signed up over the years, not one of them has ever asked me that question that I can recall.

Here are the questions you have to master to sign up students: How much does it cost? When can we start? What is the schedule?

But to address that kind of question, I would simple state "all martial arts are sports, however, you and your family never have to train for, or enter it as a competitive sport", you and your family, like all the other families here can enjoy Taekwondo as a sport of leisure, recreation, health and enjoyment

 

[Cyriacus]

Funny, we get people ask that all the time. I can honestly say one of the first two or three questions a new student will ask is "is this sport tkd?", or "what is sport tkd?". I think because all over the internet now on everything from martial arts forums to things like yahoo answers and other martial arts chat lines the term "sport tkd" is becoming very common. There is a club down the road from where I used to live that actually says "sports tkd" on the big banner hanging out the front. It could just be a regional thing though, I can only speak on behalf of clubs over here obviously.

Watch this:
https://www.google.com.au/search?rl...A&biw=1366&bih=648&sei=yQ6ST_mLFbDLmAXw6bD6AQ

I think that should speak louder than words, in terms of perception, and why many choose to have a narrow view. When even KKW WTF Practitioners do non sports stuff.

In answer to the OP;
This is a matter of how You define Sport. Or more accurately, how loosely You define it.
[

[h=2]sport[/h]   [spawrt, spohrt] Show IPA
noun1.an athletic activity requiring skill or physical prowess andoften of a competitive nature, as racing, baseball, tennis,golf, bowling, wrestling, boxing, hunting, fishing, etc.

2.a particular form of this, especially in the out of doors.

3.diversion; recreation; pleasant pastime.

4.jest; fun; mirth; pleasantry: What he said in sport was takenseriously.

5.mockery; ridicule; derision: They made sport of him.

]


​

 

[Cyriacus]

Of the thousands of students I have signed up over the years, not one of them has ever asked me that question that I can recall.

That could possibly be due to them already being in that context of Training, and thereby already knowing what it is, Good Sir

 

[mastercole]

Watch this:
https://www.google.com.au/search?rl...A&biw=1366&bih=648&sei=yQ6ST_mLFbDLmAXw6bD6AQ

I think that should speak louder than words, in terms of perception, and why many choose to have a narrow view.

It's not the many that have a narrow view, it is the few.

When even KKW WTF Practitioners do non sports stuff.

What non-spot stuff would that be?

In answer to the OP;
This is a matter of how You define Sport. Or more accurately, how loosely You define it.
[

sport

   [spawrt, spohrt] Show IPA
noun1.an athletic activity requiring skill or physical prowess and often of a competitive nature, as racing, baseball, tennis ,golf, bowling, wrestling, boxing, hunting, fishing, etc.

2.a particular form of this, especially in the out of doors.

3.diversion; recreation; pleasant pastime.

4.jest; fun; mirth; pleasantry: What he said in sport was takenseriously.

5.mockery; ridicule; derision: They made sport of him.

]


​

Thank you for the definition. This definition completely supports the idea that all martial arts are sports. Even though it states that sports are "often of a competitive nature", it provides for that sports can also be of a non-competitive nature, and that sports are defined as

an athletic activity requiring skill or physical prowess, and, as diversion; recreation; pleasant pastime, which all martial arts, without exception fall into these to areas of sports.​

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Watch this:
https://www.google.com.au/search?rl...A&biw=1366&bih=648&sei=yQ6ST_mLFbDLmAXw6bD6AQ

I think that should speak louder than words, in terms of perception, and why many choose to have a narrow view. When even KKW WTF Practitioners do non sports stuff.

In answer to the OP;
This is a matter of how You define Sport. Or more accurately, how loosely You define it.
[

sport

   [spawrt, spohrt] Show IPA
noun1.an athletic activity requiring skill or physical prowess andoften of a competitive nature, as racing, baseball, tennis,golf, bowling, wrestling, boxing, hunting, fishing, etc.

2.a particular form of this, especially in the out of doors.

3.diversion; recreation; pleasant pastime.

4.jest; fun; mirth; pleasantry: What he said in sport was takenseriously.

5.mockery; ridicule; derision: They made sport of him.

]


​

Yeah, that link speaks volumes Over here we have the STA (sports taekwondo Australia), I really should give them a call and let them know there's no such thing as sports tkd. Silly them, naming an organisation after something that doesnt exist. Oh, and another one http://web.mit.edu/taekwondo/ Damn, and another http://www.sportingpulse.com/assoc_page.cgi?c=2-1720-0-0-0&sID=14584 . all these places advertising something that doesnt exist. This is why so many people come in and ask "what is sport tkd?"