Martial Art vs. Sport (again)

[dancingalone]

Can you think of another activity where you learn skills you never expect to apply?

My point is that if you are shooting targets, you aren't learning to hunt. And if you have no intention or expectation of ever hunting, you aren't a hunter. Of course, target shooting is great fun, and if you enjoy it, great. But calling yourself a hunter is an indication you aren't self aware.

Same for martial arts. You're not learning self defense any more than any other person, if you will likely never apply what you're learning. It might be great fun and good exercise p, but you if you don't golf, you aren't a golfer. If you don't hunt, you aren't a hunter.

When I say self aware, I'm not talking about learning that in a class. I'm talking about being honest with yourself and not operating under delusion.

Can you explain your distinction to me? If I repeatedly train to defend against (say) a haymaker punch and then to counter with my own response am I training in SD? Or do I need to go so far as to actually be attacked with a haymaker by someone before I can say that?

 

[Steve]

I don't know how to make it more clear. I would say you can't develop expertise in something you don't do. If you never defend yourself, you can't allege to be an expert in it and if you never expect to use the skills you're learning, you're not working toward expertise. Doesn't mean that what you're doing isn't useful or valuable, it's just not learning to fight or self defense.


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[leadleg]

There is in your example of target practice but not hunting an activity where you are not going to apply the skill. Without learning to shoot straight you can hunt all you want, but without that particular trait you are setting up to fail.
If I teach someone s/d and they use it but I don’t am I still unaware of my activity? If everyone I teach kicking gets into multiple fights but I don’t………..
I can be an expert in teaching self defense, I am totally aware that I may use it someday, just knowing how to defend myself and the confidence it shows may be a form of defending myself every day. If those I teach, use the skills to defend themselves they are not experts at s/d but will be aware of the need they had to learn those skills.
I do not see anyone saying they are expert fighters just because they are learning skills to fight with, but they are learning to fight, that is fact. If they ever need or want to fight that specific training will be used and knowing that is awareness.
I trained to use cpr if I never use it that will not make me less able to save a life, if needed, the training would not be in vain, nor would I be delusional in thinking I may need it someday. Being prepared for something and training towards that end (preparedness) is not delusional nor unaware. If a person is taking a martial art for its sport aspect, planning on or competing, but ends up using it for defense were they unaware while training. If they never attend a tournament are they delusional. I will agree that noone teaching fighting or learning the skills needed for offense should call themselves a fighter if they never fight. I have not run into that before, nor have I ever heard the term expert self defender.

 

[dancingalone]

I don't know how to make it more clear. I would say you can't develop expertise in something you don't do. If you never defend yourself, you can't allege to be an expert in it and if you never expect to use the skills you're learning, you're not working toward expertise. Doesn't mean that what you're doing isn't useful or valuable, it's just not learning to fight or self defense.

I don't think you're completely on track with this, although I don't think you're completely wrong either.

For me personally, I DO train as if I will need those skills tomorrow even though the chances of me encountering violence actually are quite low. I do believe we are developing skills useful for self-defense, and by way of anecdotal evidence I'd had students of mine use the skills they learned in my class - one young lady fought off a predator using a pen-augmented reverse punch and other student, a police officer, used a jacket-assisted armbar (a technique sometimes thought to be archaic and useless) to subdue a perpetrator.

So did they learn self-defense in my class or not? The answer may be unimportant. Certainly they were able to apply skills in a live, dangerous situation that were developed through repetition under my guidance. If that's not self-defense, I'll just have to shrug my shoulders and go right back to what I'm doing.