Do you see judo, kendo or karatedo switching to another suffix anytime soon?
I didn't realize there was anything to clear up on ranking systems in japanese martial arts.
Actually there was karate in Japan prior to the showa period (which started in 1926). Funakoshi Sensei came to Japan in 1922 and by 1924, he was giving dan rank to students and also establishing karate clubs in Keio dai and other Japan universities. This is of course assuming that you ignore the fact that Okinawa was annexed by Japan in 1872, was made a Japanese prefecture in 1879, Okinawa citizens were given the right to vote in 1890 and Okinawa remains a part of Japan, as it has been for about 140 years, over 50 years prior to the showa period.
Even if none of that were true, "karate" (written with the characters for "empty hand"), unrelated to the okinawa's toude, is mentioned in 19th century japanese books. Some speculate that this native japanese "karate" inspired Funakoshi Sensei to change the first character from tou or tang, to kara or empty, as a bridge to making toude truly japanese. The term was already known and used in Japan, and if you remember, the objections to the character change from tang to empty came from Okinawa and Okinawans, not Japan or mainland Japanese.
That would be a valid argument if we ignored the following book titles:
Rentan Goshin Toude-jutsu (1925) by FUNAKOSHI Gichin
Ryukyu Kenpo Toude-jutsu. Kumite-hen' (1926) by MOTOBU Choki
Watashino Toude-jutsu' (1932) by MOTOBU Choki
I would also point out that two of three books listed above were published prior to the showa period, which started in late December 1926 with the beginning of the reign of Emperor Hirohito. Of course you could argue that toudejutsu is not the same term as karatejutsu, but that really isn't a valid argument, seeing how the books were published in Japan for Japanese readers.
I was thinking about this last night, about the whole battlefield concept, koryu, self improvement, do jutsu, etc. I then realized that since the Tokugawa era, there really was no battlefield wars being fought, and there wasn't any for over 350 years. So really, all the martial arts during that entire period consisted of arts being passed down by practitioners who had no battlefield experience themselves. Perhaps there were some bushi had to "defend" themselves against attacks, but in general Japan was a peaceful, non-violent country, with a disarmed people (with the exception of the samurai), just like it is today. So really what you had were archaic antiquated martial arts being "preserved", but not used, which lead eventually to "contest" type challenges to test one's skill, such that today, we have "sports" like judo, kendo, and karatedo (which has been shortlisted for consideration by the IOC for inclusion into the 2020 Olympic Games).
Someone else brought up the topic of naginata in an earlier post in this thread, it came to mind, so I put it in. But if you have any issues about language, claims, techniques or whatever else, I suggest you contact Miura Sensei directly and tell her how you feel. I am sure she would appreciate your thoughts on the matter.
You're thinking about jukenjutsu, an art which was taught at the Toyama Military Academy during the meiji period. Jukendo is an art comparable to kendo, except they use wooden rifle looking implements and kendo looking gear when engaged in matches. Here is an example:
But you said that you disagree with that part you quoted in its entirety. However, you did not go into detail about the majority of that passage, which had to do with the development of Kong Soo Do in Korea. What do you disagree with regarding that, and why? Here is the passage you said you disagreed with in its entirety:
"But the arts that do use it post meiji restoration are for the most part self discovery focused arts, as opposed to the above art. Kong Soo Do especially as the term was used in Korea during the 1950s was a name used because Dr. YON Kwai Byeong wanted to be associated with Karatedo on mainland Japan, for tournament purposes. When the name issue was raised in 1961, his main point was that the art should be called Kong Soo Do, so it could easily be a part of the internationalization of karatedo and its future as a sport. to that end, he started taking teams from Korea to for exchange matches, in preparation for when karate tournaments did go international, like it is today."
I think you discussed why you disagreed with the first sentence, but not the rest of the paragraph.
I am sure there are, given the fact that there were no battlefield action in Japan for over 350 years during the Tokugawa period. I'm sure that the majority realized at some point that their skills would never be used for the battlefield and instead turned to other philosophical reasons to continue training.
That is, if you ignore the elephants in the room such as Jujutsu/Judo, Kenjutsu/Kendo, Karatejutsu/Karatedo and now, baby elephant Jukenjutsu/Jukendo.
I prefer not to mix languages, like your preference. But assuming we take your suggestion, does that mean that we should be calling it sport judo, sport kendo, sport jukendo, sport karatedo as well? Why do that when people already know these arts are sport oriented and sport focused already, with the addition of the sport prefix?
No, just giving examples from around the corner, in response to Kong Soo Do.
Just because someone uses a shorthand doesn't necessarily show a lack of importance to the suffix itself.
I was responding to Kong Soo Do's post, which mentioned "superior people". That's not from me.
I agree. I don't think it is a good idea for taekwondoin to use japanese terms or karateka to use chinese terms. I think it leads to confusion and gives people the wrong idea, that these things don't matter. Sort of like saying there is no difference between the terms do and jutsu. There is a difference, although I will agree that people disregard that difference and say that it doesn't matter.
So if I walk into a kendo dojo and start calling the art kenjutsu, and the teacher tries to correct me, then my response to him is that there is no distinction between do and jutsu? Let me try that and see how it goes.
Either that or the over specificity of German terminology and culture is what made Draeger Sensei define those terms precisely, said precision being largely ignored by today's practitioners. But thank you for your response. It relieves me of my obligation to go confirm what Draeger Sensei wrote and having to write all of that out in a post.
We agree on that point. And you must regard him highly, because you referred to him as Draeger Sensei, and not simply Draeger. I don't think you do that too often, not even with the head of your style, you I remember you often refer to as simply Hatsumi.
But if they do have interest, the knowledge comes much easier and quicker, due to their understanding of Japanese culture, and language. When I wrote that, I was thinking more along the lines of my own situation I suppose. I am not korean by birth or blood, but I have focused on the korean martial arts of late. I did study japanese martial arts primarily growing up, which among other things impressed upon me the importance of learning and understanding the root culture and language of the arts, because it is so intertwined with the martial arts. So I try as much as possible to study korean culture and language. I ask millions of questions, read all the books, try to practice as much as possible to where I get to a point that I think that I am finally getting it. Then I will see a 16 year old korean born boy with no training, naturally and easily demonstrate his understanding of korean language and culture that blows past my poor and meager attempts to learn. It is humbling to come to the realization that he does so easily what I cannot do, at least to his level, even though I have been studying and trying for more than twice as long as he has been alive. It's to the point where I don't think I will ever get it, at least not to the level of that 16 year old boy.
But if you or Paul or others think that you can suppass a Japanese person in this way, then more power to you. I am unwilling to do that, at least at this point.
Not considered the most accurate, by some. But it's ok.
If you say so.
I've known about koryu.com as was Skoss Sensei and his wife, but for some reason I choose not to purchase their books or other materials. I don't know why it is. But I do wish to be polite to you so I took your suggestion and visited koryu.com . I did find a listing of koryu arts, but for some reason they all have the suffix jutsu listed. None have Do. I am sure you have a good lengthy explanation for that about how that doesn't matter and doesn't prove anything.
http://www.koryu.com/guide/ryuguide.html
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. As I near my fourth dan I ponder, "Could it be that it is the "Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu" part that is what defines the art rather than if you put "Iaido" or "Iaijutsu" at the end?".
