MACaver

[kenpo tiger]

Caver,

Are the crickets white because they lack sunshine? Plants do the same thing if deprived (fade or change color).

Great anecdotes. I don't think I'd be brave enough to go into a cave. I read the Nevada Barr series about a park ranger named Anna Pigeon (yes, that's her name -- she's fictional, so...) One of the books is about her participation in a search and rescue in a cave. That was my introduction to real caving. (I'm pretty sure visiting Howe Caverns and going through the grottoes on the Lebanon/Israeli border don't count.) Granted, since it's fiction, I wonder how much license the author took in her descriptions (people get killed by rock slides and falling into abysses).

My hat's off to you for having a love affair with such a dangerous and exhilarating sport! Be safe. KT

 

[MA-Caver]

Caver,
Are the crickets white because they lack sunshine? Plants do the same thing if deprived (fade or change color).

True lack of color pigment is a sign of a true troglodite or permanent cave dweller. They have no need for it, nor do they have eyes. They should not be considered albinos since they have no pigment at all. Albinos have pigment... white.
I am suspecting (though I can find people more knowledgeable than I to say better) that color pigment varies with region or even sub-species. Rarely have I seen (cave) crickets on the surface during the day. They tend to forage at night... unless of course there's a dead bunny at the bottom of the cave they can feed on.

Great anecdotes. I don't think I'd be brave enough to go into a cave. I read the Nevada Barr series about a park ranger named Anna Pigeon (yes, that's her name -- she's fictional, so...) One of the books is about her participation in a search and rescue in a cave. That was my introduction to real caving. (I'm pretty sure visiting Howe Caverns and going through the grottoes on the Lebanon/Israeli border don't count.) Granted, since it's fiction, I wonder how much license the author took in her descriptions (people get killed by rock slides and falling into abysses).

Visiting any place that has a total lack of sunlight counts... yea even unto a tour cave. For me visiting one of those is patronizing because duh! I know all that stuff dude/dudette.
I haven't read any Barr books but I'll look 'em up. National Geographic makes a terrific video called the Mysterious Underground. Should be able to find/order it through the public library. Also check out the video version of the IMAX film Journey Into Magnificent Caves. I know one of the cavers in the film (Hazel Barton...she's a hoot to go caving with btw) and hearing the "behind the scenes" story first hand is really something. A lot of work goes into any IMAX feature.

My hat's off to you for having a love affair with such a dangerous and exhilarating sport! Be safe. KT

Awww shucks! :angel: I don't have to take that abuse from you... I've got dozens of people dying to abuse me... but thanks for the sentiment.

Thanks to Flatlander for allowing me to vent my passion. :asian:
I'll post more pics from time to time and be happy to answer any questions.
:asian:

 

[MA-Caver]

More critters:
A close caving buddy of mine found this rare Salamander and got a couple of pics of it and sent it to me as well as some other distinguished biologists (glad to be part of that group... whomever they are ) But anyway this widdle fella is about 11 inches long and cute cute cute. I've asked as to why this particular species is so rare. Will update whenever I find out.
Meanwhile enjoy.

 

[Flatlander]

Those are really good quality pics, MACaver.

 

[kenpo tiger]

I'm amazed he was able to get so close -- or did he use a telephoto lens? Whatever was done, adorable little guy, if you can call something almost a foot long adorable!

I just saw the vertiginous pics of you in the personal pix thread. I'm just so glad I can share your thrills vicariously (as I said before) and not really have to do that. I just don't think I could.

 

[MA-Caver]

Well actually it's a she that took the pics, a hydrogeologist/caver friend of mine that was caving with her bf (also one of my best friends...that is a long romantic story in-of-itself ) and they spied the cute feller.
Salamanders, particularly those who are cave dwellers (though they go out at night to feed) are generally sluggish in their movements and (in-cave) have no natural enemies and thus don't (usually) shy away from human intrusion.
If left well enough alone it won't mind being the object of close-up photography. I suspect my friend was able to get inches away from the fella with no ill effects to either of them. She should've placed something in the picture for scale (a quarter or a pen or something). Just taking her word for it that is the size of the critter in the pic.

That they're not usually shy of humans is good for us who love getting close but not personal with natural and animals and bad for them for the chances of meeting a sadistic idiot (ala Beavis/Butthead types) who might think it'd be fun/cool to torture the little beastie to death.
I've seen the results far too often. In one cave a couple of fun-lovin-morons decided to do a public service and murder some 200 individual bats of a colony that roosted in a popular cave. They used bottle-rockets to stun the animals off the roof and a baseball bat to finish them off. They did it so often that day/night that they actually broke the (baseball)bat in two. They later bragged of their feat and that eventually led to their arrest and fines. Since then a gate covering the entrance of the cave has been built and the populations of this particular species of bat (listed as Threatened on the Endangered Species Act) has rebouned wonderfully to (at last count -- a year ago) over 600 individuals. Townsend Long-eared Bats Corynorhinus townsendii - is the species.
(See www.batcon.com)
Though I did not personally witness the aftermath of the (above mentioned) carnage I was disgusted none the less. It's one of the reasons why I concur with the philosophy of keeping cave locations secret until such a time that a person proves themselves that they care more about the cave and it's (natural) inhabitants than themselves. I can get other pics of what vandalism can do to an otherwise pristine environment.
Meanwhile the pic of the Corynorhinus townsendii -is there for your enjoyment as well. These are my favorite species as they are cute cute cute.

 

[Sarah]

VERY COOL Pictures MACaver, have just seen them for the first time.....am very impressed!!

 

[kenpo tiger]

It burns me that people are so stupid. Those bats will usually leave people alone. The ones in my backyard do, and I suspect that, while they probably aren't like the ones found in caves, bats as a species have gotten a bad rap from Halloween and those lovely ghost stories we all love.


Take a bat to the bat batters.:hammer: :bomb: :cuss:

 

[MA-Caver]

Thank you. I read on another (caving) discussion board about the misconceptions of bats and rabies. The CDC determined that about half of 1% of bats are known to carry rabies. And the ones that do are usually dead or already dying on the ground (be it in a cave, attic, belfry, wherever!). There has been no recorded incidents where a person was bitten by a rabid bat.
But still once that stigma is out it's awfully hard to get rid of. Centuries of old-world traditions of bats being beings of the underworld (pardon THEIR pun) and of vampires and harbringers of death or ill omens of being death's messenger. And then the discovery of a real vampire bat in Mexico... all that and then their (sometimes) ugly appearances doesn't help the fact that they are probably one of the most concentrated groups of mammals on the planet. Some caves have been counted as to holding anywhere between 15 to 20 million individuals in a single colony.
Now think upon this. A bat will eat about 1/2 it's weight in insects (lets do mosquitos for example) every night. A bat averages anywhere between 1 to 1-1/2 to 2 ounces in total body weight...though some species like the Fruit Bat are larger and heavier. Think about how much a mosquito weighs, then think about how many mosquitos amount to 1/2 a bat's weight then take that number of mosquitos and multiply that by 15 to 20 million...each night and think about how useful those ugly, creepy creatures known as bats are.

From the website http://www.batcon.org/discover/species/naturalhistory.html
Ecological and Economic Value Worldwide, bats play essential roles in keeping populations of night-flying insects in balance. Just one bat can catch hundreds of insects in an hour, and large colonies catch tons of insects nightly, including beetle and moth species that cost American farmers and foresters billions of dollars annually, not to mention mosquitoes in our backyards. The 20 million free-tailed bats from Bracken Cave in Central Texas, eat more than 200 tons of insects in a single mid-summer night!
Throughout the tropics the seed dispersal and pollination activities of fruit- and nectar-eating bats are vital to the survival of rain forests, with some bats acting as “keystone” species in the lives of plants crucial to entire ecosystems. Many plants bloom at night, using unique odors and special flower shapes to attract bats. The famous baobab tree of the eastern African savannas is a good example. Only bats approach from below in a manner likely to contact the flower’s reproductive organs and achieve pollination. Of course they do so because the plant rewards them handsomely with nectar. This tree is so important to the survival of other kinds of wildlife that it is often referred to as the “Tree of Life.”

They undeservedly get a bad rap because of misunderstandings/misconceptions and just plain ignorance. Also from the same site/page:

Bats are, for their size, the slowest reproducing mammals on earth. On average, mother bats rear only one young per year, and some do not give birth until they are two or more years old. Exceptionally long-lived, a few survive for more than 34 years.

ID of bats below (should be)
Ghost Faced Bat, Greater Bonneted Bat, Hoary Bat, and Spotted Bat.
These all can be found on the website provided and are all indiginous species of the U.S.A. enjoy
:asian:

 

[Flatlander]

Wow! Look at the ears on that one!


MACaver, you are one cool dude.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Huzzah for the bats.... I used to work in a bat lab, studying the sonar and flight patterns of bats. (We looked at the big brown bat, Eptesicus fuscus). They are fabulous creatures.

Too bad there wasn't a bat-protecting posse to knock some sense into the idiots who almost destroyed that colony....

 

[Sarah]

The second one down is so fluffy.....CUTE

 

[MA-Caver]

Huzzah for the bats.... I used to work in a bat lab, studying the sonar and flight patterns of bats. (We looked at the big brown bat, Eptesicus fuscus). They are fabulous creatures.

Too bad there wasn't a bat-protecting posse to knock some sense into the idiots who almost destroyed that colony....

Well that's why they (USFS) placed a gate on that particular cave and it ticked a number of people off... they reopened it for a "season" and afterwards found more dead bats and then closed it off for good. Years later they were (politically) pressured to investigate the possibility of re-opening the cave and making it to a (wild) tourism cave where access is controlled and won't disturb the bats...we had one meeting and nothing more was heard about it.

The second one down is so fluffy.....CUTE

The Spotted Bat is probably (IMO) one of the most beautiful bats in the U.S. because of it's gorgeous black and white spotted coat. Been trying to find a better picture of the body...when I do I'll post it.

 

[MA-Caver]

PAH! (as we deaf people like to say)
Finally found something new and interesting to post here. This is off a website for geologist nuts and cavers love it as well.
Caves are home to a myriad of formations, aka speleothems. Stalactites (hangy-downies) and Stalagmites (pokey-uppies) as well as draperies, columns and crystaline formations galore.
Some of these are the cause of intense debates as to the origns. Here is an example.

Helictite or Eccentric
Image (below): Helictites in Buchan Caves in Australia. (© Mathias J. Duckeck)
A speleothem, which changes its axis from the vertical at one or more stages of its growth. Helictites have a curving or angular form that looks like they had grown in zero gravity.
The growth of helictites is still very enigmatic. Until now there is absolutely no explanation for how they formed, just a bunch of theories.
One theory names the wind in the cave as main reason for the strange look. Drops hanging on a stalactites are blown to one side, so the dripstone grows into this direction. If the wind changes, the direction of growth changes too.
This theory is very problematic, because wind directions change very often. The wind in caves depends on air pressure changes outside depending on the weather (see Wind Cave). So the wind direction changes as often as the weather conditions outside change. But the dripstones grow very slow, several centimeters in 100 years. So the direction would change every fragment of a milimeter.
A second problem with this theory is, that many caves with helictites never had a natural entrance.
Another theory explains helictites with capillary forces. If the helictite has a very thin central tube where the water flows like in straws, capillary forces would be able to transport water ignoring gravity. This theory was inspired by some hollow helictites.
The problem with this theory is, that most helictites are definitely not hollow.
The way helictites are formed is still unknown. This is definitely the most interesting problem in speleology.

The picture below is a good representation example of what the article is talking about. I've seen gorgeous examples of these things and while weird and beautiful... they're extraordinarily fragile (like most speleothems). Once broken off... the mineral/crystaline structure makes it nigh impossible for anytype of adhesive to bond and thus repair them.
Another reason why we cavers are sometimes anal about revealing locations.

More Speleothems to come... (gads I'm loving this...edukayshunal ya know? :uhyeah: )

 

[raedyn]

*eyes wide in awe*
*claps hands excitedly, eargerly sits down in front of MACaver, crosses legs to listen intently*

 

[MA-Caver]

On a cavers discussion forum (much like this one) this post was put up with a pic. I thought it was sooo cool. Someday I'll do the same I hope.

Hi - just wanted to take a moment to post a picture and some compliments for the great job Doug Feakes did on the wedding bands for Scott and I.

If there are any cavers out there contemplating tying the knot (and I'm not talking rappelling), you should really look into having these wonderful custom-made rings done... (or if you want to renew your vows and make it really special)

Our rings have beautiful formations, multi-layered passageways and "tunnels" to pop through, and best of all- when you stack the two rings one on top of the other, Scott's ring has a caver laying down reaching his hand down to the caver on my ring that is standing up and reaching a hand up to him....

Thank you so much Doug for such an amazing design and for carrying it out so flawlessly and quickly- these rings are so very special!

The pic is the best that the poster had to offer and thus same with me.

 

[MA-Caver]

Speleothem of the week:

Soda Straw(s) (-stalactite) or layman's terms... hangy-downies.
Straws are dripstones pointing vertically downwards from the cave ceiling. They are very straight, thin and fragile. They are always hollow, the water is coming from inside, the outside is normally dry. They are formed by dripping water.
Before reaching the cave, the dripping water went through limestone rocks and had time to solute small amounts of this limestone. But the ability to solute limestone depends of the CO2 in the water. Now the whole process goes the other way round, the CO2 leaves the water into the cavern air and so the water looses the ability to keep the limestone in solutiuon. The limestone gets solid again, forming small growing calcite crystals in the water.
A drop at the ceiling is formed by water coming down a crack. When the water drop grows, there is a point where weight of the water gets too large for the surface tension and the drop falls down. But in the meantime the water looses carbondioxide (CO2) to the atmosphere of the cave. A small amount of calcite crystallizes in the water.
The crystals are formed, where the CO2 gets lost: at the surface of the water. And they get deposited on every surface they get contact with. For a small drop on the ceiling, the surface gets contact in a circle around the drop, and thats exactly where the calcite is deposited. It forms a small circular rim, then a wall and later a tube.
The crack, where the water enters the cave, is inside the straw. The water runs through the tube it built itself, forming a drop at the top of the tube, depositing another small amout of calcite, and falling down. This process continues until the water dries out or the path of the water gets blocked.
Sometimes the straws become long enough to break because of their own weight. But thats really rare, as they can become severeal meters long. In most caves the straws reach the bottom first.
Straws are dry outside, because the water runs inside. And it is also necessary for them to stay thin. As soon as water runs outside, this water would deposit calcite on the outside, the tube gets conic, the straw becomes a stalactite.
This may happen because of various reasons, but the most common is the blocking of the tube. Sometimes a little dirt or sand is transported by the water and gets into the tube, where it deposits and blocks the path. Sometimes calcite crystals grow inside ttube and seal it.
And sometimes the water just changes its path. The feeding crack is not a single spot, but its a long crack along the ceiling. So if the water leaves the crack just a few millimeters beneath the old place, it will run down the straw on the outside.

Image 1: a schematic drawing of straws and a stalactite.
Image 2: a caver admiring a large group of straws over a pool
Image 3: another caver admiring a large group of straws
Almost every cave I've seen has had soda straws. The longest one I've seen is well over two feet in length and happily it's far out of reach on a 15 foot+ ceiling. I've also seen clusters that numbered in the thousands in once cave aptly named: Porcupine Cave.

photographic credits: Brandon Kowallis

 

[shesulsa]

Caver, this is just awesome. I'm going to share this thread and the pix with my oldest son who is interested in speleology.

Thanks for posting and sharing! (jaw still hanging).

 

[Flatlander]

Man, MACaver, those pics are simply amazing. I can imagine that to be actually down there in that environment would be absolutely surreal.

 

[MA-Caver]

Speleothem of the week:
Stalactites
Stalactites are dripstones pointing vertically downwards from the cave ceiling. Stalactites are deposited by dripping water. The drop is formed at the ceiling by water coming down a crack, hold against gravity by the surface tension of the water. When the water drop grows, there is a point where the weight of the water gets to large for the surface tension and the drop falls down.
But in the time between two drops, some amount of carbon dioxide (CO2) goes from the water into the caves air. Whithout this CO2 the water is not able to keep all its limestone, and a tiny amout of limestone crystalizes at the ceiling. It first forms a ring around the drop, then a soda straw.
Normally after some time a little dirt or calcite fills the soda straw and forces the water to flow on its outside. This is the moment when the soda straw becomes a stalactite.
The diameter and shape of the stalactite depends on the amount of deposited limestone and the amount of water. If there is very little water, it will flow rather slow and most of the limestone is deposited near the ceiling. This results in thick stalactites. If there is much water, the limestone deposition takes place all over the stalactite and it will be rather thin and long.
Stalactites are always thinner than other drip stones, especially stalagmites, and have a pointy lower end.

Most anyone that's ever heard of caves knows what stalactites are, even if they can't keep them straight from stalagmites. (Some useful associations are that stalactites hang "tite" while stalagmites hold "mite", or that stalactites are on the ceiling, stalagmites on the ground.) Crystals of calcite in a soda straw are oriented longitudinally and grow downward, so lengthening the straw. Most soda straws, however, eventually conduct water along their external surface, as well, and there deposit radially oriented calcite crystals perpendicular to their outer surface. This leads to thickening of the soda straw into the classical "icicle" shape most people associate with stalactites. Internal flow may continue, but often ceases as external growth envelopes the former drip canal.