MACaver

[mj-hi-yah]

She's adorable...It looks like he's saying, "My heart's caving for you!" :inlove: :inlove: :inlove:

 

[shesulsa]

AAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWW........

Again, Beautiful Pix!

 

[Shodan]

Nice pictures!! I have a question that may be sort of stupid.......but asking it anyway.......so how do you get back out of these caves you drop down into? Do you climb back up the ropes somehow or with some, can you walk out thru the cave entrance? :idunno:

 

[Kenpo Mama]

Hey MACaver,

Absolutely gorgeous pix. These caves look awesome. Maybe someday we'll get to visit some of these. The closest i've come to caving is "cave tubing" in Belize. I was kinda' scared of the BATS! I kept thinking they were going to swoop down on us while we were floating by in our tubes. How did you get started in caving?

Donna :supcool:

 

[MA-Caver]

Nice pictures!! I have a question that may be sort of stupid.......but asking it anyway.......so how do you get back out of these caves you drop down into? Do you climb back up the ropes somehow or with some, can you walk out thru the cave entrance? :idunno:

Shodan, if you go to the beginning of the thread you'll see where I posted pics of people either rappelling or ascending... which is climbing on the rope itself (not the rock(s)) with mechanical ascenders (see below) ... it takes some training and practice to do the simplest (vertical) caves but lots of practice to do the techincal ones. It is a great aerobic work out over 100 feet. My deepest thus far is -400' down an open -700' mineshaft... hopefully before year's end I'll complete the drop to the bottom and work my way back up. My deepest IN-CAVE drop is -300' down a shaft big enough you can drop a 757 fuselage down into. Love it - love it - loooove it!
1st pic is the basic which is usually attached to a loop at the foot. 2nd pic is the Croll which can be at the foot or at the waist-harness, third is the hand held ascender... one configuration (out of many ) is the Frog... shown with the 4th pic. To operate it all it's basically sit-stand, sit-stand, sit-stand, and so forth.

She's adorable...It looks like he's saying, "My heart's caving for you!" :inlove: :inlove: :inlove:

Their first date was in a cave that I took them (and another couple) to about a couple of years ago... they've been together since. Initally she gives the impression of one of those "ohhh, I broke a nail" type of girls but she really, rilly loves this stuff. My bud James is of course just ... as you say caved in for her. They've talked about getting married in a cave someday. It wouldn't be the first.... nor the last... I'd want to do the same. Just gotta find a preacher willing to err, get down and dirty shall we say? :uhyeah:

 

[Shodan]

Thanks MACaver......makes more sense to me now!! I imagine it would be quite a workout climbing back out but it looks like a ton of fun. Are there big pressure changes (ears popping, etc) on the longer drops? Also, can you carefully explore most of the caves or is it mainly looking at what you can on the drop in and then leaving again? One more.......have you ever dropped into a cave with water (like a creek, river, etc) at the bottom?

My brother is a geologist/hydrogeologist and he runs across mine shafts and such all the time in his work- he said he'd love to explore some of them if he had the equipment/know how, etc.

Very cool stuff-
:asian: :karate:

 

[Flatlander]

Aren't you all glad I started this thread now? Hmmmmm? I certainly am. Thanks MACaver!

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Aren't you all glad I started this thread now? Hmmmmm? I certainly am. Thanks MACaver!

I have never seen you do anything that didn't put a on my face!

 

[Flatlander]

Awwwww, shucks ma'am, *looks down, puts hands in pockets, shuffles feet in dirt* just bein' friendly'n'all. Ain't no need to get all mushy'n stuff. *face flushes*

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Ya see what I mean? BIG BIG

Their first date was in a cave that I took them (and another couple) to about a couple of years ago... they've been together since. Initally she gives the impression of one of those "ohhh, I broke a nail" type of girls but she really, rilly loves this stuff. My bud James is of course just ... as you say caved in for her. They've talked about getting married in a cave someday. It wouldn't be the first.... nor the last... I'd want to do the same. Just gotta find a preacher willing to err, get down and dirty shall we say? :uhyeah:

That is such a nice story! You'll have to keep us posted on both counts!

 

[MA-Caver]

Thanks MACaver......makes more sense to me now!! I imagine it would be quite a workout climbing back out but it looks like a ton of fun. Are there big pressure changes (ears popping, etc) on the longer drops? Also, can you carefully explore most of the caves or is it mainly looking at what you can on the drop in and then leaving again? One more.......have you ever dropped into a cave with water (like a creek, river, etc) at the bottom?

Caves are usually defined as naturally occurring voids in the earth's crust. Probably (one of) the most interesting facts about caves is that they're alive, they go through a "life-cycle" if you will. Born of water and time and natural erosion (most limestone caves) they grow and expand and many develop a circulatory system from the underground streams that can be found inside. They also breathe. Barometric pressure from the outside either forces air in or draws it out.. depending upon if it's falling (air in) or rising (air out). Depending upon the size of the various chambers/grottos/rooms/passages some caves can have very strong "winds", particularly at the entrance(s). For example Lechuguilla Cave in Carlsbad National Park N.M. has winds that blow out at roughly 60 mph. The cave has huge, vast chambers and well over 115 miles of passage and is currently the deepest in the U.S. at 1567.91 feet and 89 miles of passage (compare to Mammoth Cave System in KY which is 349 miles but only 377 feet deep). At the end of their cycle they'll dry out when the water table lowers or simply disappears and the formations and passages dry up and become fragile and what we call a dead-cave. Natural erosion over millions of years can cause caves to open up and lose their humidity level (which is always constant depending upon the entrance size) and the cave dries up as well that way.
As long as the cave(s) have passage openings large enough for a human being to pass through then cavers (including myself) will go as far as the cave allows. The tightest squeeze I've done is around 6-1/8 inches (measured) that went for a mere 30 feet.. took me 25 minutes to get through that sucka. (see photo below of that passage's size for an example...that isn't me btw).
What is exciting news in Utah caving now-a-days is that we may beat Lechuguilla's depth sometime in the next few weeks/months. More on that later.
Yes, I've rappelled down into pits and landed in pools of water... mostly ankle to calf deep (and yeah it was COLD). Caves maintain the same temprature all year round despite the outside air temprature. They can be as warm as 68 degrees to as cold as 31 degrees depending upon the altitude... the higher the colder. We have several caves (in Utah) which either have ice deep inside or snow at the bottom of their entrance drops all year round.
My personal depth record is -400 feet in a single drop and 1165 feet total cave depth. Yeah, it was a work out alright on both occasions. I've done 20 hour trips in a single cave (going both ways) not including the hikes getting to them. Before it occurred to me I always struggled whenever I went then realized a number of years ago how I could apply my MA training in my movement, energy conservation/usage, balance and concentration in what I am doing at the moment. Found out that it made a world of difference.

My brother is a geologist/hydrogeologist and he runs across mine shafts and such all the time in his work- he said he'd love to explore some of them if he had the equipment/know how, etc.
Very cool stuff- :asian: :karate:

As mentioned before go to www.caves.org and look up organizations then look up grottos and then click on your state and find the nearest "grotto" (aka club) to you (or your brother) and inquire within. They will have someone either designated as their training officer or a volunteer (like moi) to show the ..err ropes. Fair warning they may seem stand-offish at first but they'll warm up. Reason for that is because grottos have been "burned" by folks just wanting to know where the caves were at and then telling everyone they know and eventually the caves suffer vandalism and/or someone gets seriously killed or hurt. It's not snobbery, it's common-sense ... go to www.darwinawards.com and you'll see that a few folks don't have it.

Flatlander... me thinks you created a monster. ME! bwaha ha ha ha ha
*ahem* right. Oh-kay any other questions...anyone? anyone? Bueller?

 

[mj-hi-yah]

I'll bite -vampfeed- here's my question:

Besides bats what, if any, other creatures have you encountered in your caving expeditions?

 

[MA-Caver]

I'll bite -vampfeed- here's my question:

Besides bats what, if any, other creatures have you encountered in your caving expeditions?

Well, other than the cute little buggers known as bats, I've encountered mostly insects; slow moving beetles, cave crickets, and flies and once a huge spider that rested upside down on a low ceiling that I happened to be crawling under, turned over on to my back to better fit myself and looked up and there it was just inches from my face, got me through that passage in a hurry it did, heh.
Beetles, crickets and flies are primarily scavengers, eating off any carcasses of animals that happen to find their way in or were unfortunate enough to fall in after moving about around the entrance. Some of these creatures (rabbits mostly) survive their falls and die long deaths.
Larger (live) animals I've seen have been a trout (got washed in), and a porqupine that had made it's home inside a small cave we were checking out. Luckily it was nestled into a too tight (for humans) crack and all we could do was just look at it looking at us and take pictures.
Oh and rats... yes, rats. Wood rats to be more specific. They're also known as pack-rats. These are not the sewer rats or the type you keep as pets or use as snake food. These guys are more akin to chinchillas, being very furry, even their tails are furry and itty bitty feet. They leave huge amounts of fecal and urine matter in some caves and their nests can be seen here and there (pic below). Seeing one is hard to do because they're very shy but when you do... it's more like awwww instead of ewwww. Wish I had pics of the creatures themselves... they are really cute.
The creatures in caves the ones that I know are there but don't see are the microscopic creatures that live in an environment so fragile that bringing food in from the outside and leaving the crumbs is enough to permanently damage the whole eco-system of the entire cave. Sooo, we either eat our food (if needed) over a plastic bag and cart it out or eat before/after the cave.

Sorry you asked because you got such a long winded answer? :idunno: What can I say... I love caves. ... about (if not more) than MA.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Sorry you asked because you got such a long winded answer? :idunno: What can I say... I love caves. ... about (if not more) than MA.

Not at all Caver! Believe it or not it's interesting ! But no Yogi Bear? Where's Yogi hanging out these days? :lol: No snakes? Pack rats (as in a pack of rats!) I'll need a pic first before I enter the cave! :uhoh: Also, that's something about the crumbs! It must be hard to control that from happening from the unknowledgeable...or are the caves regulated only with guides?

 

[Shodan]

Thanks for the interesting info. MACaver- I will pass on the websites to my brother.

Speaking of my brother.....we were talking about a search and rescue (he is a volunteer with them) call he went on today and it got me thinking of a question for here......have you ever had any caving close-calls, people missing or other dangerous mishaps? How long have you been caving or interested in caving?

Thanks again-
Shodan

 

[Ceicei]

Thanks for the interesting info. MACaver- I will pass on the websites to my brother.

Speaking of my brother.....we were talking about a search and rescue (he is a volunteer with them) call he went on today and it got me thinking of a question for here......have you ever had any caving close-calls, people missing or other dangerous mishaps? How long have you been caving or interested in caving?

Thanks again-
Shodan

MACaver is actually part of the S&R team. He has assisted on some rescues. I'll let him tell you the stories...

- Ceicei

 

[MA-Caver]

Not at all Caver! Believe it or not it's interesting ! But no Yogi Bear? Where's Yogi hanging out these days? :lol: No snakes? Pack rats (as in a pack of rats!) I'll need a pic first before I enter the cave! :uhoh: Also, that's something about the crumbs! It must be hard to control that from happening from the unknowledgeable...or are the caves regulated only with guides?

Okay finally I managed to contact some caving buddies of mine and they sent me these pics of the wonderful critters that I sometimes see. Pack-rats and cave crickets... oh and a Sallymander.
Ok granted not all the pics show the critters IN caves per-se but I have seen them... just have to take my word for it.. the rats (note the furry tails) are photo-ed in cave. The crickets are generally much paler in color almost cream to opaque... sometimes they number in the hundreds ...
Enjoy

 

[Ceicei]

Those pack-rats are adorable!!!!

- Ceicei

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Caver I must admit so long as you promise not to put wings on them they are very very very cute! Now the bugs we have to chat about ewwwww to the crickets sorry spine tinglers they be! Sallymanders LOL cute how you say it, but I don't want no sally nothing like that crawling over my toes! All in all though I think I could survive! Thanks for the pics maybe you'll become part of our fifth grade science fair exhibit! It's cool! :ultracool Thanks for sharing!

 

[MA-Caver]

Originally Posted by Shodan
Thanks for the interesting info. MACaver- I will pass on the websites to my brother.
Speaking of my brother.....we were talking about a search and rescue (he is a volunteer with them) call he went on today and it got me thinking of a question for here......have you ever had any caving close-calls, people missing or other dangerous mishaps? How long have you been caving or interested in caving?

Thanks again-
Shodan

MACaver is actually part of the S&R team. He has assisted on some rescues. I'll let him tell you the stories...

- Ceicei

Personally I've been caving for roughly 28 years. 14 of those years are vertical caving... Been teaching for 8-9 years. In that time I've had several (personal) close-calls which is just the nature of the "game". Just like with hunting, rock/ice climbing or anything else that is considered a "risk" sport.

I used to be part of the Cave SAR team but am now semi-retired...meaning that if necessary then I'll be called out.. but only most likely if the rescue has gone beyond team limits (as far as man-power) or more than a day or two...which some (cave) rescues can last that long due to the inheirent difficulties that environment (sometimes) imposes upon the rescue efforts. I have participated in several (cave) rescues and have performed "self-rescues" (in cave) which basically means the SAR and county wasn't called because I was able to facilitate the means of helping the individual out on my own with the assistance of the others on the trip.
To give a rescue story would take too long to go into here as I tend to be detailed once I get going on the subject. Remember folks MA is my second biggest passion (please don't ban me, please don't ban me! ).
But we have a saying in the caving community... "Cavers rescue spelunkers". To give an example of this and I'm not intending to diss on the rescue efforts performed by County SAR (read sheriffs' dept.) but well... perhaps this will explain.
Two seperate incidents involving two pairs of boys/scouts (venture scout age...14-18 yrs) in the same cave and in the exact same spot.
Incident one: two boys go explore a well known tight passage. The smaller boy goes in first followed by a larger and heavier kid. The passage slopes downward. Now the human body tends to elongate when lying down on a slope greater than 20 degrees... this means you're skinnier going down/in than you are going up/out. Finding the passage is a dead end the boys turn around (in a small room) and start their way out... big boy first. Guess what?
14 hours later the efforts of the county SAR (with Cave SAR as tech support) get the first boy out, two hours after that the second kid is out. I was there mainly as support personnel, shuttling gear and what-ever back and forth from the tight spot to the surface... and back again. This spot is a good 1/2 mile into the cave.
Incident two: Same spot, same circumstances, different kids. This time I happened to be one of the first on the scene (accidently as I was just visiting and was recognized by the incident commander when he arrived on the scene about the same time. I, along with my caving buddy was sent in to see what I can do while the I.C. awaits the other members of the team to arrive and to set up the equiptment and begin their efforts.
I reach the kid and in 45 minutes was able to get the kid out...by simply talking him through it and get him moving one-inch-at-a-time. Five minutes later the second kid was out... he was really small for his age.
Points are: 1st. The kids were without their adult supervision in the first place and the blame rests with the adult who would've told them not to go into that passage in the first place had he gone INTO the cave with them.
2. Those who move through caves on a regular basis are like rock/ice climbers, they will know what will work better than those who train intermittedly for rescue purposes. Thus they should be used as a resource and first-responders to the scene. Cavers/climbers with medical training (even first-aid/cpr/emt) should be the ones performing the actual rescues with the other SAR folks as their support.
Dammit I'm rambling again.
I'll hush...
One more if one is going to be doing any type of activity on a regular basis; caving, rock/ice climbing, mountaineering, X-country skiiing, etc. etc. etc. it's a good idea to learn the most amount of first-aid necessary for such ventures as well as basic rescue techniques so that time isn't wasted on waiting for the pros to arrive. 911 should be called if there is a serious injury involved but having the necessary skills there to help the victim/patient goes a long way.

Nuff said on that... :asian: