Antony Cummins - Shoninki

[Muawijhe]

By the way, the version of the Shoninki that you linked above seems to be the best presently available, personally I'd want to get both that one and Don Roley's version as a good cross reference to each other. But that's how I do these things.

I agree wholeheartedly with the above (unquoted portion). As for the quoted, yes I also agree. I will own all of the versions, even Antony's, to cross reference.

For the one I just recently found out about, and linked, I'd like to get his German version. It has a much smaller page count than his English edition of this year, but I'm curious what he has to say (auf Deutsch) on the matter.

 

[ronin7411]

Did you guys see Anthony Cummins new videos on the Bujinkan's lineage based on the request of Bujinkan members to prove Masaaki Hatsumi's lineage to the public

If you guys want to debate his claims that Takamatsu made up everything you can contact him at this site here: http://www.natori.co.uk/natori home.html or go to his Youtube account to contact him.

 

[Bruno@MT]

To me, the point is moot.
And we won't change dear old Anthony's mind.
We'd only give him free publicity.
He's an idiot with no actual first hand knowledge and no relevance.

 

[EWBell]

Funny thing about Cummins is he talks about training with some Amatsu Tatara taijutsu gentleman in England. Strange that the Amatsu Tatara is as tied to Takamatsu Sensei as anything else is.

 

[Chris Parker]

Did you guys see Anthony Cummins new videos on the Bujinkan's lineage based on the request of Bujinkan members to prove Masaaki Hatsumi's lineage to the public

If you guys want to debate his claims that Takamatsu made up everything you can contact him at this site here: http://www.natori.co.uk/natori home.html or go to his Youtube account to contact him.

Oh dear. Johhny, I've "debated" Antony a number of times. He, frankly, has no understanding of martial arts of any form, no clue about the history, there are huge gaps in his knowledge of the culture, he cannot read, speak, or even pronounce Japanese words, and has no real ability to back up his claims, no ability to demonstrate simple reasoning and critical thinking in his "research", and far more. He is a big mouth with little ideas, and should be treated as such.

So you know, though, he has a tendency, if you do try to debate him, he quickly resorts to outright insults (most often questioning sexuality, most original) and deleting comments. Going to his youtube page doesn't really do much.

EWBell, Antony claims a number of interesting things, including being taught in the middle of a lake at night by the mysterious Ste(wart) Powell, a name which is only known as it features in Antony's books in the dedications. He also claimed to have spent a number of years training at the Hombu for the Bujinkan, and the Hombu for the Genbukan. The only verifiable part of his story may be Dennis Bartrum, who teaches something that comes from Amatsu and Budo Taijutsu, and is not considered good by anyone I've encountered in the Bujinkan. The reason it may be verifiable is that there is footage of Antony training at Dennis' class, although it all looks to be from one day, not years of footage as he seems to make out. Antony and Dennis live a few hundred miles from each other, so Dennis being his "local" school that he went to regularly is not really looking likely.

It turned out the Bujinkan Hombu training was Antony turning up in Japan, telling Hatsumi that he didn't have enough money for training (as he was paying for his degree), so could he be the "dojo b-tch" (his words) and clean it and run other errands in exchange for free training? Hatsumi said no, but allowed Antony to stay and watch some classes, until he got sick of this little hanger-on. That's the extent of his "Bujinkan" training (by the way, he justifies this by saying that he was taught informally, and was told he was as good as a 4th Dan [?!?!] if he wanted to send his membership moneys to Japan... he chose not to, as he was "comfortable knowing his instructor was his instructor", he didn't need any more than that).

The Genbukan story is supported by Antony having a signed copy of Ninpo Secrets... which he bought, and got signed in his one meeting with Tanemura in Tanemura's office. No training in the Genbukan, then.

If any of this crosses the line of fraudbusting, then I apologise, however this is pretty much all from Antony's own hand (and mouth), so I'm simply repeating facts for those unaware. Hmm, the way this is going, this may end up in The Great Debate yet.....

 

[ronin7411]

Here's Part 3 guys on his investigation into the Bujinkan

 

[Chris Parker]

First off, Johnny, do you actually read anyone else's posts?

But, to humour you, I went through Antony's latest little endeavour, and let's just say that there are some serious issues with his ideas there as well. He claims that Ueno is a place name, and therefore wouldn't be used as a Ryu-ha name, despite it also being a rather famous family name (Ueno Takashi, for example...), his pronunciation of Japanese is terrible, he mis-translates a range of terms while apparently "correcting" others, he contradicts his own ideas, and misses rather important details.

Until he can show any form of credibility with regard to the subject matter, the language, or the culture he is attempting to discuss, he will be ridiculed and dismissed. As he should be, frankly, his ideas on research are below lazy, and his arrogance in thinking after his lack of experience he knows any of this better than people who have been looking at this for literally decades is unforgiveable.

 

[oaktree]

I would be interested in seeing what the Kanji club comes up with. The people whom Mr.Cummins hired or whatever.

I do hope they keep the Kanji in the book so others can compare it with the translation the Kanji club did.
Mr.Roley is spot on about just because you can translate the book(the Kanji club translation) does not mean the work is accurate. You have to know the context of what is being said.


Mr.Roley truly has a passion for it and my impression of Mr.Cummins is more of an egocentric presentation a way to validate himself practicing or some pseudo authortity on this art.

It is really a ballsy move to translate a text like this my thoughts that native speakers may be able to translate it but I think the context would be inaccurate as Mr.Roley pointed out before.

 

[Kajowaraku]

true Oaktree. Ironically, in translating the text, you risk loosing the message. Such is the predicament of translating from kanbun. Such joy. People claiming to have "the ultimate translation" of shoninki usually don't know what they're talking about. The only way of doing this is with lots and lots of annotations and notes. Like you guys said, not just translating the text, but putting it in the context of the time it was written, the people it was written by and the readers it was written for (not to mention culture and bloody grammar complicating translation). It's like reading a poorly translated unannotated version of Heidegger's Sein und Zeit. Even the original work requires some annotation (well, more than just "some"); let alone a translation made 90 years later (or centuries later and across vastly different era and cultures, like with shoninki). It amuses me how easy such daunting tasks come to people like good Anthony. He must be truely blessed. Mr' Roley's account sound alot more thought out, and alot less presumptious, which is usually a good indication.

 

[ronin7411]

Actually I do Chris but if you want to change his mind because I'm not the one that is saying the Bujinkan is fake and Takamatsu made everything up you can contact him yourself and tell him everything that you are telling me. I'm not Bujinkan so it doesn't bother me what Anthony has to say about the Bujinkan its his opinion and what he thinks of the Bujinkan if you guys are offended or angered about what he said you take tell him yourself. (Going off of his videos already there are Bujinkan guys going after him as it is for the videos.)

 

[Chris Parker]

The reason I ask is that we stated rather clearly that whatever Antony has to say doens't really interest us, as he has demonstrated again and again that he is in no position to hold any credibility whatsoever. Repeatedly. Then you post some links to videos of his, and we repeat again that we frankly don't care. I also point out that I have personally "debated" Antony, and found his skills, insights, theories, ideas, concepts, research, and critical thinking (as well as basic language skills and more) very lacking. You then post another one, and once again suggest that I can contact him myself (after I already told you I had had contact with him over these types of things). Was there a reason you thought we would be interested?

Really, this is similar to your thread on "Ninjitsu training partners...", again you were repeatedly told things and refused to listen. So I'm just noticing a pattern here, really.

But, for fun, really, I did send a few comments to the clips, correcting a few of the most glaring issues he has, he changed his story in his reply, so I pointed that out to him, and he went silent.... again.... He really doesn't impress me.

 

[Bruno@MT]

true Oaktree. Ironically, in translating the text, you risk loosing the message. Such is the predicament of translating from kanbun. Such joy. People claiming to have "the ultimate translation" of shoninki usually don't know what they're talking about. The only way of doing this is with lots and lots of annotations and notes. Like you guys said, not just translating the text, but putting it in the context of the time it was written, the people it was written by and the readers it was written for (not to mention culture and bloody grammar complicating translation).

I am waiting for Don Roley to release his translation of shoninki.
Don's a translator (Japanese of course) is a bujinkan high level student, has lived in Japan for a long time and has made exhaustive studies of JMA and topics related to ninjutsu. If anyone can make a proper annotated translation, it is him.

 

[Chris Parker]

Sadly, I'm less convinced now that Don is going to release it to the public. His main reason was to provide a better alternative to the less-reliable version Antony was bringing out. But with the other versions (particularly the German one) that have more credibility than Antony's, he's stopped seeing the reason. I would still prefer to see his version over pretty much any other, though. At present it is only available through his newsletter, and he makes that available to only those who he deems good enough people.... and are members of the Bujinkan in good standing. So that rules out any other X-Kan or split off members, from the impression I get from him. Pity, really.

 

[ronin7411]

Here's his latest video I have friends of mine who belong to the Bujinkan and even they see flaws in his videos but to remain fair and so that people can choose to believe what they want on the style of Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu here is the 4th video on his investigation into the Bujinkan he's suppose to be doing a summary video really soon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrcwLu3urBg&feature=player_embedded#!

 

[Rayban]

the style of Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu

Really?!

(face palm)

 

[Chris Parker]

Johnny, I'm going to recommend you stop this endeavour here. Again. I'll go through your post and point out how you aren't listening, just to help, but this'll probably get quite harsh. I'm just in that kind of a mood, really.

Here's his latest video

The first ones were rather badly done, he keeps claiming no agenda other than the truth, yet ignores anything that contradicts his frankly flawed and limited understanding of the subject. We don't really have any reason to see more, he doesn't improve with age or repeated viewing.

We are not interested. If you are, watch them.

I have friends of mine who belong to the Bujinkan and even they see flaws in his videos

Really? He has an agenda of "exposing the Bujinkan", and members of the Bujinkan see flaws? Hell, I'm not a member of the Bujinkan and I see a lot of flaws! Haven't you been paying attention? We all see a lot of flaws with this guy, that's why we don't really care what he says!

but to remain fair and so that people can choose to believe what they want on the style of Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu here is the 4th video on his investigation into the Bujinkan he's suppose to be doing a summary video really soon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrcwLu3urBg&feature=player_embedded#!

Really? Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu? Again?

Johnny, you got some great advice and education from a number of people over a period of about 6 months, starting with teaching you how to spell the word correctly, if you are still doing this, you have absolutely no interest in learning anything about the actual art itself. You have found your modern baseless non-Japanese non-authentic non-legitimate system that you're learning through correspondance, go enjoy that. But really, realise that it has absolutely nothing to do with anything close to an actual authentic art, Japanese, Ninjutsu, or otherwise. And don't expect to be taken as a serious contributor after your other thread until you decide to actually listen to those who have been there, and done that.

Okay, that was the harsh bit, sorry everyone else.

This is not remaining fair, from him or you. This is pursuing an agenda. That's all it is. There is no "fair" approach from him, so there can be no "fairness" in continuing to post his videos.

Do you get it yet?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

The thing is that as bad as his research is other people who are frauds are flocking to it to help give themselves credentials. It is one huge mess. Anyone who is endorsed and or associated by some of these other people should make you say literally "oh my god"!

 

[Indagator]

The thing is that as bad as his research is other people who are frauds are flocking to it to help give themselves credentials. It is one huge mess. Anyone who is endorsed and or associated by some of these other people should make you say literally "oh my god"!

Birds of a feather, right?

I suppose the silver lining on that cloud of confusion would have to be at least you know if somebody is endorsed and or associated by or with these people, you know what their opinion is worth...

 

[Chris Parker]

Oh, I could give you a list.... including the latest, who is beyond worrying, really.

 

[ronin7411]

Hey Chris, if you don't mind me asking you a question are you so quick to dismiss Anthony's videos on the Bujinkan because your style of Ninjutsu is derived from the Bujinkan because when I clicked on your link in your signature it says this on its homepage:

Sensei Wayne Roy is the founder of Ninjutsu in Australia, and is a world leader in the development of effective training programs based on the Japanese martial art of ninjutsu.

Originally a Student of Nagato Sensei, and Grandmaster Hatsumi, Wayne Roy has continued to evolve the traditional techniques of old into a dynamic and effective modern art form.

These are the last of his videos and apparently someone else from the Bujinkan tried to prove him wrong but yet everything is not coming up clear on the Bujinkan's lineage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZCEO2rFRhw&feature=related