Lun Kai Interview

[zuti car]

I agree what's important is what can be demonstrated to be effective,however lineage tell you something more about your art. like where it came from and it's development. an exm would be if I was a painter, I would study all the old masters going back as far as possible to see how it developed with each generation and what each generation contributed. So that way I would have an education and could talk to anyone about painting instead of just being able to paint well. You would know your place and what contribution you made to the art. Look at lineage that way and it has more meaning. Just knowing how to hit someone or beat them up is not very impressive..Any thug can do that.

Knowing history is important , but not the most important . There is one more thing , what we call history in wing chun is not actually that . There isn't any valid historical research which could give us some solid answers about origin and people involved in wing chun development . From scientific point of view wing chun history is nothing more than a rumor , something that cannot be proved at the moment . I do not have problem with that but obviously some people do , even more , when I suggest that there is no enough evidence to prove some things , people feel personally offended and they respond accordingly .What I cannot understand is the reason for such a behavior , like I am attacking their family members or even gods . If someone has religious feelings toward wing chun ancestors then he should be clear about it , I would never offend other people's fate in any way , but if that is not case , why not accept the truth as it is with all the evidence we have or do not have ?Why personal attacks for simple statement of the facts ?

 

[Vajramusti]

Knowing history is important , but not the most important . There is one more thing , what we call history in wing chun is not actually that . There isn't any valid historical research which could give us some solid answers about origin and people involved in wing chun development . From scientific point of view wing chun history is nothing more than a rumor , something that cannot be proved at the moment . I do not have problem with that but obviously some people do , even more , when I suggest that there is no enough evidence to prove some things , people feel personally offended and they respond accordingly .What I cannot understand is the reason for such a behavior , like I am attacking their family members or even gods . If someone has religious feelings toward wing chun ancestors then he should be clear about it , I would never offend other people's fate in any way , but if that is not case , why not accept the truth as it is with all the evidence we have or do not have ?Why personal attacks for simple statement of the facts ?[/QUOTE

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We are not exactly in a dialog. And you are assuming what my position is. I will state my position again.

1. No "ideology" involved in my position.

2. No scholarly peer reviewed history of wing chun exists that I know of.

3. Ip man says he learned from Leung Bik, To say he didn't is really calling him a liar. Affirming or negating
Leung Bik's existence is constantly recycling chit chat...a plentiful waste of time.

4.Reasonable respect for good teachers in wing chun, philosophy, law, humanities or science or art
is not a bad set of values to have. Respect is not religion.

5. I validate my understanding of wiing chun by applying what I have learned from my sifu, sigung and indirectly
Ip Man (because si gung was a long time student of Ip Man).

 

[zuti car]

3. Ip man says he learned from Leung Bik, To say he didn't is really calling him a liar. Affirming or negating
Leung Bik's existence is constantly recycling chit chat...a plentiful waste of time.

.

This is the most important part . How long did you live among Chinese ? How well do you know and understand traditional Chinese culture ? Yip Man was not a liar , not from Chinese point of view although Leung Bik never existed . What is considered lie on the west ,among Chinese is a way to keep the "face" of the person, business establishment or even a kung fu style . Empty promises are also not considered as lies but actually as a politeness .To tell a lie in order to save the "face" is ethically acceptable it is actually a common tool in interpersonal relationships and communication . Measuring things out of their cultural and historical context is wrong , and will always give wrong conclusion and results .

 

[Vajramusti]

This is the most important part . How long did you live among Chinese ? How well do you know and understand traditional Chinese culture ? Yip Man was not a liar , not from Chinese point of view although Leung Bik never existed . What is considered lie on the west ,among Chinese is a way to keep the "face" of the person, business establishment or even a kung fu style . Empty promises are also not considered as lies but actually as a politeness .To tell a lie in order to save the "face" is ethically acceptable it is actually a common tool in interpersonal relationships and communication . Measuring things out of their cultural and historical context is wrong , and will always give wrong conclusion and results .

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Enough of your cherry picking...and gatekeeping on Chinese behavior.

 

[zuti car]

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Enough of your cherry picking...and gatekeeping on Chinese behavior.

You still didn't answer how well do you know Chinese culture, how much time you did you live among Chinese on the east ? If you have any solid evidence to prove Leung Bik's existence, please present it here . If not , just admit you are wrong . If you cannot do neither ask your self why .

 

[Vajramusti]

You still didn't answer how well do you know Chinese culture, how much time you did you live among Chinese on the east ? If you have any solid evidence to prove Leung Bik's existence, please present it here . If not , just admit you are wrong . If you cannot do neither ask your self why .

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Aw come on- you are pushing your stereotype of Chinese behavior on giving face-proves zilch on Ip man. And quit being personal. You don't know much about me. My knowledge
of Asian including Chinese culture- academic and experiential is considerable. No need to beat my drum here.

 

[jks9199]

Folks,

Let's try to keep things friendly, OK? Things seem to maybe be getting a bit tense, and way to personal for internet communication.

 

[Vajramusti]

Folks,

Let's try to keep things friendly, OK? Things seem to maybe be getting a bit tense, and way to personal for internet communication.

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I am trying. I understand and agree to forum rules.

 

[Marnetmar]

I'm tempted to write a satirical "Wing Chun bible" that captures all the politics in the community.

 

[zuti car]

I'm tempted to write a satirical "Wing Chun bible" that captures all the politics in the community.

I would love to see that .

 

[geezer]

What I do not understand why is important did Leung Bik really existed or not?

Ancestry and lineage mean a lot to some people. Not so much to others. I find it interesting, but not surprising that there is little information on this subject. More seems to be coming to light now that China has opened up and so many people are visiting places like Fo'shan, Ku-lo village and so forth. I just came across this:

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.349128988508337.85727.118477494906822&type=3


Anyway, until the evidence is clearer, I'm sticking with Grandmaster Yip's account, just out of respect for tradition. Otherwise, I agree with Zuti, that what matters most is what you can do, not who your teacher's teacher's teacher was!!!

BTW, the original Zuti Car (Huang Ti) was also mythological! LOL

 

[zuti car]

Ancestry and lineage mean a lot to some people. Not so much to others. I find it interesting, but not surprising that there is little information on this subject. More seems to be coming to light now that China has opened up and so many people are visiting places like Fo'shan, Ku-lo village and so forth. I just came across this:

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.349128988508337.85727.118477494906822&type=3


Anyway, until the evidence is clearer, I'm sticking with Grandmaster Yip's account, just out of respect for tradition. Otherwise, I agree with Zuti, that what matters most is what you can do, not who your teacher's teacher's teacher was!!!

BTW, the original Zuti Car (Huang Ti) was also mythological! LOL

I have seen this before, In the article I can see only claims, not a piece of real evidence .This article looks like some of thous miracle cosmetics or diet products advertisements , they use some famous names and institutions to support their claims but never offer real references . No one ever offered any document , anything beside Yip Man's story and I have no reason to believe in a story . Why there is no birth or death certificate , tax record , any written trace of Leung Bik during his supposed life span . That is strange because we have all that in his father's case . About photos , Leung Bik's photo I will not comment , there is no reference where it is from , who took , where , when and how so there is no way to check if the photo is authentic . If such things are hidden , then photo is most probably a forgery . Leung Jan's photo is same case as Leung Bik's with one more thing to be considered . It is obviously a gravestone photo , we know Leung Jan died at the beginning of the 20th Century and I am pretty sure people didn't put photos on the gravestones until much later period , also location of Leung Jan's grave is still a mystery . It is strange that we have his gravestone photo but still not know where the actual grave site is . This is only 5 minutes analysis , something that anyone can see . Maybe I put too much attention in this , especially because I do not care about Leung Bik at all , but I always feel sad when I see adult people take legends for truth . Anyway , I will not return to this again .And one more thing , I think Yip Man learned a lot if not most of his system from Yuen Kai San
About (huang ti) my family name translated on Chinese is same huang as in huang di's name , who knows , maybe he is my great, great great...great grandfather .

 

[geezer]

I have seen this before, In the article I can see only claims, not a piece of real evidence. ... Leung Jan's photo is same case as Leung Bik's with one more thing to be considered . It is obviously a gravestone photo , we know Leung Jan died at the beginning of the 20th Century and I am pretty sure people didn't put photos on the gravestones until much later period...

I really can't comment on this as "evidence". Hopefully the issue will be cleared up some day.

Oh, by the way, years ago I visited the graves of my great-great grandparents outside the little little village in Texas they helped to found after coming to this country from Germany in the mid 19th century. They died in the late 1800s and their graves had photos on them.

 

[zuti car]

I really can't comment on this as "evidence". Hopefully the issue will be cleared up some day.

Oh, by the way, years ago I visited the graves of my great-great grandparents outside the little little village in Texas they helped to found after coming to this country from Germany in the mid 19th century. They died in the late 1800s and their graves had photos on them.

Photos like "Leung Jan's" or carved pictures ?