Lun Kai Interview

[Marnetmar]

 

[futsaowingchun]

interesting the fact that Ip Man never talked about Leung Bik in Fo Shan I' sure he made up that story in HK and also learnt the Baat Cham dao in HK also from another sifu

 

[Vajramusti]

interesting the fact that Ip Man never talked about Leung Bik in Fo Shan I' sure he made up that story in HK and also learnt the Baat Cham dao in HK also from another sifu

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i DON'T THINK SO. We have gpne over all this here and elsewhere. Lun Kai did not study with Ip Man long enough to be taught the knives.
Lun kai was a house servant not a biographer.

 

[futsaowingchun]

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i DON'T THINK SO. We have gpne over all this here and elsewhere. Lun Kai did not study with Ip Man long enough to be taught the knives.
Lun kai was a house servant not a biographer.

maybe so but he learnt the pole so why not the knives? at least he would have seen the form or Ip Man talking about it. Also before one leans the knife you learn a set of exercises to prepare for the set just like the pole Sifu lun Kai did not even know that. Lun Kai learnt up to the pole in 4 years makes no sense IpMan would not teach him before he left so he could work on it him self even if he was not ready for the knife. Ip man himself only learned a few years from Chan wa soon so how did he complete the system so quickly?

 

[Vajramusti]

Ip man himself only learned a few years from Chan wa soon so how did he complete the system so quickly?[/QUOTE]
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IMO- there you have the Leung Bik contribution. Ip Man's wing chun became quite different from that of Chan Wah Shun- though he remained thankful to Chan wah Shun
and his top students for getting him started. He spent several years in Hong Kong with Leung Bik.... who had left Foshan to make a living in Hong Kong.

Ip Man had with him Leung Jans little books on hitting points and medicinre which Leung Bik gave him . Ip Ching donated them to the Ip Man museum in Foshan.
Leung Bik was an old man when Ip Man met him. Ip Man asked his father for extra money- with which he helped support Leung Bik,

I have a xeroxed copy given to me by a friend in Hong Kong.

For me a crucial factor is Ip Man's mature and complete wing chun which isdifferent from Chan Wah Shun's. You can see examples of the Chan Wah Son's
lineage wing chun on You tube.

The devil is in the details of the differences-in concepts, structure, turning, stepping, dummy, pole and knives.

 

[futsaowingchun]

Ip man himself only learned a few years from Chan wa soon so how did he complete the system so quickly?

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IMO- there you have the Leung Bik contribution. Ip Man's wing chun became quite different from that of Chan Wah Shun- though he remained thankful to Chan wah Shun
and his top students for getting him started. He spent several years in Hong Kong with Leung Bik.... who had left Foshan to make a living in Hong Kong.

Ip Man had with him Leung Jans little books on hitting points and medicinre which Leung Bik gave him . Ip Ching donated them to the Ip Man museum in Foshan.
Leung Bik was an old man when Ip Man met him. Ip Man asked his father for extra money- with which he helped support Leung Bik,

I have a xeroxed copy given to me by a friend in Hong Kong.
For me a crucial factor is Ip Man's mature and complete wing chun which isdifferent from Chan Wah Shun's. You can see examples of the Chan Wah Son's
lineage wing chun on You tube.

The devil is in the details of the differences-in concepts, structure, turning, stepping, dummy, pole and knives.

sure I agree Ip Man Wing Chun is quite different from that of Chan Wah Shun's lineage, but I hear that Leung Bik never exisited. I'm sure Ip Man when in HK learnt something from someone but we really can't confirm from who and what he learned from. In the end it does not matter. Ip Man knew what he knew it does not matter where it came from. Even if he made the whole thing up himself I would be very impressed because that would mean he was a genius..

 

[Vajramusti]

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sure I agree Ip Man Wing Chun is quite different from that of Chan Wah Shun's lineage, but I hear that Leung Bik never exisited. I'm sure Ip Man when in HK learnt something from someone but we really can't confirm from who and what he learned from. In the end it does not matter. Ip Man knew what he knew it does not matter where it came from. Even if he made the whole thing up himself I would be very impressed because that would mean he was a genius..

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Ok to have somewhat different views, I find the Leung Bik story to be credible enough but also IM was indeed a martial arts genius.

 

[KPM]

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sure I agree Ip Man Wing Chun is quite different from that of Chan Wah Shun's lineage, but I hear that Leung Bik never exisited. I'm sure Ip Man when in HK learnt something from someone but we really can't confirm from who and what he learned from. In the end it does not matter. Ip Man knew what he knew it does not matter where it came from. Even if he made the whole thing up himself I would be very impressed because that would mean he was a genius..

Well, here's the thing.....Ip Man Wing Chun doesn't look much like Chan Wah Shun's Wing Chun, at least what has been taught by CWS's son. BUT...it does look a lot like Yuen Kay Shan's Wing Chun. Especially the early version of Ip Man's system as represented by Leung Sheung and his students. Maybe there was a Leung Bik. But that's not a known fact. But we do have two facts: Ip Man trained with Yuen Kay Shan, and Ip Man's Wing Chun taught to his first students in Hong Kong looks a whole lot more like YKS's Wing Chun than it looks like Chan Wah Shun's Wing Chun.

Whether Leung Bik really existed or not, you can't discount Yuen Kay Shan's contribution and write him out of the equation. Yuen Kay Shan was Ip Man's senior, his friend, his training partner, and one of the "three heroes of Foshan" along with Ip Man. How could anyone think that Ip Man didn't learn things from him?

 

[Vajramusti]

Well, here's the thing.....Ip Man Wing Chun doesn't look much like Chan Wah Shun's Wing Chun, at least what has been taught by CWS's son. BUT...it does look a lot like Yuen Kay Shan's Wing Chun. Especially the early version of Ip Man's system as represented by Leung Sheung and his students. Maybe there was a Leung Bik. But that's not a known fact. But we do have two facts: Ip Man trained with Yuen Kay Shan, and Ip Man's Wing Chun taught to his first students in Hong Kong looks a whole lot more like YKS's Wing Chun than it looks like Chan Wah Shun's Wing Chun.

Whether Leung Bik really existed or not, you can't discount Yuen Kay Shan's contribution and write him out of the equation. Yuen Kay Shan was Ip Man's senior, his friend, his training partner, and one of the "three heroes of Foshan" along with Ip Man. How could anyone think that Ip Man didn't learn things from him?

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Suggest you read/see late kwok fu's interview and comments on YKS.

 

[KPM]

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Suggest you read/see late kwok fu's interview and comments on YKS.

Can you point me towards a link? Thanks!

 

[Vajramusti]

Can you point me towards a link? Thanks!

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You might Google:
A secret interview with legendary Gwok Fu-Wing chun hero from Nam Hoi

 

[futsaowingchun]

Well, here's the thing.....Ip Man Wing Chun doesn't look much like Chan Wah Shun's Wing Chun, at least what has been taught by CWS's son. BUT...it does look a lot like Yuen Kay Shan's Wing Chun. Especially the early version of Ip Man's system as represented by Leung Sheung and his students. Maybe there was a Leung Bik. But that's not a known fact. But we do have two facts: Ip Man trained with Yuen Kay Shan, and Ip Man's Wing Chun taught to his first students in Hong Kong looks a whole lot more like YKS's Wing Chun than it looks like Chan Wah Shun's Wing Chun.

Whether Leung Bik really existed or not, you can't discount Yuen Kay Shan's contribution and write him out of the equation. Yuen Kay Shan was Ip Man's senior, his friend, his training partner, and one of the "three heroes of Foshan" along with Ip Man. How could anyone think that Ip Man didn't learn things from him?

I agree I'm sure YKS had some influence on IPwing chun. They knew each other and if they where very close the likely hood of exchaning information is very high. I would also agree IP wingchun look more in common with YKS then CWS wing chun. To me they look like completely different arts.

 

[Vajramusti]

I agree I'm sure YKS had some influence on IPwing chun. They knew each other and if they where very close the likely hood of exchaning information is very high. I would also agree IP wingchun look more in common with YKS then CWS wing chun. To me they look like completely different arts.

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We have our opinions. I don't think that YKS had much influence on IP Man. Yes they knew each other.

 

[Marnetmar]

From what I understand, YKS is basically where Ip's style of chi sau comes from.

Anyway, while we're on the subject:
CWS's SLT:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G304i7ZnX4M#t=672

YKS's:

Early Yip Man:

(Allegedly that last version of the form is from before YM met YKS, but from the recent discussion in another thread concerning that video that probably isn't the case. By the way, if anyone has a higher res video of CWS's SLT, please post it)

 

[zuti car]

I found interesting that some people put a lot of importance in lineage "purity" , like that is making their art somehow better or superior . What I do not understand why is important did Leung Bik really existed or not ? How that fact influence quality of some particular style today ? Isn't more important what you can actually do in a ring or a real fight instead of who your kung fu grandfather was ? And one more thing , living on the far east I've learned one thing , you can believe only things you saw with your own eyes , especially when we talk about kung fu of any kind

 

[Vajramusti]

I found interesting that some people put a lot of importance in lineage "purity" , like that is making their art somehow better or superior . What I do not understand why is important did Leung Bik really existed or not ? How that fact influence quality of some particular style today ? Isn't more important what you can actually do in a ring or a real fight instead of who your kung fu grandfather was ? And one more thing , living on the far east I've learned one thing , you can believe only things you saw with your own eyes , especially when we talk about kung fu of any kind

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Some folks spend and waste time debunking the existence of the Ip Man/Leung Bik connection. Ip Man's own achievements is good enough.

 

[zuti car]

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Some folks spend and waste time debunking the existence of the Ip Man/Leung Bik connection. Ip Man's own achievements is good enough.

Good enough for what ? Isn't your achievements suppose to be important to you ( not you specifically but in general) ? I have an impression that some people put more importance in authority of the person ( grandmaster, founder of the style , some ancestor) than to actual technical value of the style , that would be something like, if people in science put more importance in a person who discovered something ( like laws of the motion or theory of relativity ) than to discovery its self . And , when I already mentioned science , there is a perfectly good way , called scientific method , to prove things correct or incorrect , right or wrong , existing or non existing ...

 

[KPM]

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Some folks spend and waste time debunking the existence of the Ip Man/Leung Bik connection. Ip Man's own achievements is good enough.

Is that why you always chime in when someone suggests that there isn't much evidence to support the existence of Leung Bik? Is that why you always make sure to try and discredit any possible influence of Yuen Kay Shan on Ip Man? What's the old saying?......."Me thinks you doth protest too much Sir!" ;-)

 

[Vajramusti]

Is that why you always chime in when someone suggests that there isn't much evidence to support the existence of Leung Bik? Is that why you always make sure to try and discredit any possible influence of Yuen Kay Shan on Ip Man? What's the old saying?......."Me thinks you doth protest too much Sir!" ;-)

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Not worth responding to in the way the question is formed.

 

[futsaowingchun]

I found interesting that some people put a lot of importance in lineage "purity" , like that is making their art somehow better or superior . What I do not understand why is important did Leung Bik really existed or not ? How that fact influence quality of some particular style today ? Isn't more important what you can actually do in a ring or a real fight instead of who your kung fu grandfather was ? And one more thing , living on the far east I've learned one thing , you can believe only things you saw with your own eyes , especially when we talk about kung fu of any kind

I agree what's important is what can be demonstrated to be effective,however lineage tell you something more about your art. like where it came from and it's development. an exm would be if I was a painter, I would study all the old masters going back as far as possible to see how it developed with each generation and what each generation contributed. So that way I would have an education and could talk to anyone about painting instead of just being able to paint well. You would know your place and what contribution you made to the art. Look at lineage that way and it has more meaning. Just knowing how to hit someone or beat them up is not very impressive..Any thug can do that.