You have a point. However, sexual harrassment and asking a woman who you have obvious chemistry with at work out on A date cannot be sexual harrassment if she says no and you don't hound her about it, no?
Love and the Martial Arts
- Thread starter Sensei Payne
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You have a point. However, sexual harrassment and asking a woman who you have obvious chemistry with at work out on A date cannot be sexual harrassment if she says no and you don't hound her about it, no?
According to our training it could be.
She then talks to someone else and she is beign totally fine about it but just comments that I asked her out. The next woman then tells someone else and now she begins to feel uncomfortable, on if I will ask her out or if I won't. So no she feels and acts uncomfortable around me which might lead to others.
They use the word IMPACT in that it is not only the intent but the IMPACT of your actions. They also use the terms reasonable person. I have had this broken down for me into the reasonable male and reasonable female.
If a reasonable male gets asked out, there is not group of males that would not assume that your ego took a boost.
If you ask a reasonable female about being asked out then they could be considered about the size of a 6'3" 290 lbs guy who trians in the martial arts and if it goes bad what coudl that mean.
Two very reasonable perspectives.
Also as stated if I make a comment in front of one person and she is ok with it, but others are not, that is harassment as well.
Case in point we had a quick cook out on Friday at work. Someone called me an ******* in gest. A woman stated that is ok because I am a *****. The guy who called me the name, in sarcasm, stated very clearly and so everyone could here that he never called her that. She replied I know but I did called myself that. Some women at the table smiled and laughed. Others were actually concerned because they had not heard the whole conversation. So the impact was that he created a work place violent situtation or harassment at the least to them. But because of his follow up actions to clarify and hers all was ok. If not and someone complained the least he would have had was MORE TRAINING and he could have lost his job.
I have seen relationships go bad including marriages. Where the woman says things like, "He forced me to have sex." So know behind his back everyone is calling him a rapist and does nto want to work with him. Now when cornered or asked by the management the two that I know where questioned backed off, and stated that others had misunderstood her. So they moved the guy in jobs and location to try to give him shot at starting over with the company. But neither one were ver promoted again as it was in their record that there had been an investigation, even if it was not their fault. There are other qualified pesons out there without the investigation.
At one company HR came to me to ask why this one woman had filed reports on everyone around her but me. It turned out that I had recognized she did nto liked to be approached, so if I had to work with her on something, I would lean and drop it on the corner of her desk so she could pick it up and then she could review and come to me with any questions. She would also then determine the range she got to you. I had seen her turn and walk into a wall to aovid eye contact or verbal discourse with males. I felt sad for her. So I reduced the trauma she was dealing with. In the end I was still a target because I had done my best. It was no surprise a few months later that everyone who was investigated including her were on the lay off list when thery were getting rid of 300 peopel form the company.
So, given the data. Given the reactions I have seen. And the situations I have been in. I react the way I do. I no longer even banter at work. I do not joke around in mixed company at all. If a woman cracks a joke I will smile and continue what I was doing but not comment. Even if a woman changes her hair style and you make a comment about it being "nice" it could be taken wrong by her or others who heard or she tells. So why risk it.
But like I said, if she approached me I might consider it. If we were friends outside of work as well and something developed there, maybe.
But even if one asks and she says no which is in the training, it still can be considered harassment. Maybe not enough to force you out of your job but enough to make it so bad you do not want to stay.
kidswarrior
Senior Master
Hey, SP, congrats on finding the woman of your dreams. I got married to my first wife at 20....
And now, it's 35 years later and we're still married. BUT, we'd known each other four years before that, as some have suggested is important. I was in the service, so steady work for the next four years wasn't a problem.
Lots of things were harder because we started so young: I had to go to college all day (after the service, at 25), and work in a factory all night, sometimes only sleeping every third night. And as Hawke said, over the course of a life, lots of things change: your bodies, your expectations, the weight of disappointments--and yes, you'll disappoint each other; finances (we've been rich, and we've been bankrupt; now we're in the middle) and your attitude toward finances.
I would say the one thing that's hardest to change and that life thrusts on us all, is that our plans often don't work out. Now that's not necessarily a bad thing. It's how we deal with them that's good or bad. If we can learn to let go of some of our idealism, these changes can be seen to actually be better than the plans we had. The key: to let go of the things you have no control over.
Anyway, a mini-rant, so I'll stop. But I'm happy for you and a little apprehensive for all that's ahead. But that's life.
And now, it's 35 years later and we're still married. BUT, we'd known each other four years before that, as some have suggested is important. I was in the service, so steady work for the next four years wasn't a problem.
Lots of things were harder because we started so young: I had to go to college all day (after the service, at 25), and work in a factory all night, sometimes only sleeping every third night. And as Hawke said, over the course of a life, lots of things change: your bodies, your expectations, the weight of disappointments--and yes, you'll disappoint each other; finances (we've been rich, and we've been bankrupt; now we're in the middle) and your attitude toward finances. I would say the one thing that's hardest to change and that life thrusts on us all, is that our plans often don't work out. Now that's not necessarily a bad thing. It's how we deal with them that's good or bad. If we can learn to let go of some of our idealism, these changes can be seen to actually be better than the plans we had. The key: to let go of the things you have no control over.
Anyway, a mini-rant, so I'll stop. But I'm happy for you and a little apprehensive for all that's ahead. But that's life.
Brandon Fisher
Master Black Belt
Congratulations on finding someone special. Let me offer some advice though. Take it slow and easy, its better to wait than to rush into things. To many marriages end in divorce because someone thought they were ready or knew the person. My wife and I got married 5yrs & 5 months to the day after we started dating. We have bee together 10 years and married for 5 (on 7/13) and its been great. We have been through alot but its been great even when bad. Get to know each other and enjoy each others company for awhile before porposing. It will make for a richer relationship later.
One thing about sexual harassment... It's only a problem if it's unwanted. Unfortunately, lots of employers are so afraid of law suits, that they leave no room for voluntary and desired comments, or inquiries.I guess all the "Training" at work where if could be considered sexual harassment and the possibility of me loosing my job/carear.
If a woman was interested and approached me I would think about it. But as an instructor, I have a personal problem with approaching a woman in class. Not that I have any in class right now.Speaking on theory here.
Best wishes on the new relationship though.
It's also a problem -- or at least presents the appearance of impropriety -- if the relationship is unequal, such as a supervisor/subordinate relationship.
Similar to the stories Vikings told their grandchildren. LOL
Sean
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Sensei Payne
Black Belt
the situation was farthest from Sexual harassment...
Remember from the story, I struggled with the idea of dating someone from class, and eventually I just forgot about it and moved on...but it was still somewhere in my mind, so when she flipped me onto my back and I hit my head, and she looked at me the way she did...its just popped out...
and after our date, which I was nothing but a gentlemen the entire time, I took her home, I told her I had a good time, she said she did too, and I asked her if she would like to go out again, and she agreed, and now we have a wonderful relationship...
BTW our first date, we went to go see a board breaking competition. We didn't partisipate(sp?) but we enjoyed being spectators for a change..then we went out to dinner, and just hung out and had a good time....
I do want to thank everyone for your feedback and concerns about my situation...if you would call it a situation...I just thought I would share my thoughts and feelings about something that has happened in recent past, that I am excited and overjoyed about...I thank you all
Remember from the story, I struggled with the idea of dating someone from class, and eventually I just forgot about it and moved on...but it was still somewhere in my mind, so when she flipped me onto my back and I hit my head, and she looked at me the way she did...its just popped out...
and after our date, which I was nothing but a gentlemen the entire time, I took her home, I told her I had a good time, she said she did too, and I asked her if she would like to go out again, and she agreed, and now we have a wonderful relationship...
BTW our first date, we went to go see a board breaking competition. We didn't partisipate(sp?) but we enjoyed being spectators for a change..then we went out to dinner, and just hung out and had a good time....
I do want to thank everyone for your feedback and concerns about my situation...if you would call it a situation...I just thought I would share my thoughts and feelings about something that has happened in recent past, that I am excited and overjoyed about...I thank you all
kidswarrior
Senior Master
Thanks for sharing. Don't worry about the brief diversion into harassment in the workplace. Don't think that was intended for your situation at all (you've been dating for six months now, after all
), just more of a general caution to others IMHO.Best wishes, and keep us posted. ~kw
TheOriginalName
Blue Belt
Just wanted to voice my congratulations for your relationship.
And do not worry about your age. Love is love - and if you have found that special person who when you look at them you can see your entire future then you are one of the luck ones. Hope on to them - a soul mate is a rare thing.
If you approach your relationship with the same dedication you both have shown towards your training nothing will stop you both from growing old together and living a happy life.
But remember this - there will be times when things are hard. There will be times that you do not know how you will make it through together. These are tests - hold on to your honesty and loyalty through these times and they will pass.
And the most important piece of advice - from one bloke to another - she is always right, even if she is wrong she is right.
oh and what is hers is hers - and what is yours is hers too.
Best wishes for the future!!
And do not worry about your age. Love is love - and if you have found that special person who when you look at them you can see your entire future then you are one of the luck ones. Hope on to them - a soul mate is a rare thing.
If you approach your relationship with the same dedication you both have shown towards your training nothing will stop you both from growing old together and living a happy life.
But remember this - there will be times when things are hard. There will be times that you do not know how you will make it through together. These are tests - hold on to your honesty and loyalty through these times and they will pass.
And the most important piece of advice - from one bloke to another - she is always right, even if she is wrong she is right.
oh and what is hers is hers - and what is yours is hers too.
Best wishes for the future!!
OP
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Sensei Payne
Black Belt
Oh so true...
Thanks for the advice..to you and to all...
Trials and tribulations are ahead...and I am ready to take them on...
If you think about it...its like learning a kata for the first time....
When you start... your body tries to do something that isn't in the Kata, but slowly but surely, your body conforms to the kata, and eventually, it turns into something beautiful and effective
Balrog
Master of Arts
SWMBO and I met through Taekwondo. She was married, I was married, she brought her son in and signed him up. At first, she was simply a parent of a student. About 3 months later, her marriage cratered. About 9 months later, my marriage cratered. About 6 months after that, we wound up talking to each other for a longer period of time, and not in a teacher-parent relationship.
We discovered things in common, one thing led to another, and last month, we celebrated our 170th anniversary together (I do them monthly; it's about the only way I can keep her off balance).
We discovered things in common, one thing led to another, and last month, we celebrated our 170th anniversary together (I do them monthly; it's about the only way I can keep her off balance
).
Nomad
Master Black Belt
I hope everything works out for you. I'd like to warn you off, and tell you to stay single and avoid marriage until you're older and wiser... but it'd be fairly hypocritical of me, since 20 is about when I met my wife, and we'll be celebrating our 15th anniversary in August.
Do keep in mind that people do change (especially around that age), and the important thing is to try and change together.
Do keep in mind that people do change (especially around that age), and the important thing is to try and change together.
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Sensei Payne
Black Belt
Everything changes, this is very very true...
But the way I feel about her...that could never change...
But the way I feel about her...that could never change...
Balrog
Master of Arts
Ummm.....on a very personal note, I hope that statement is not true. Your feelings toward her should change, but hopefully they will remain positive. If there is no change, there is only stagnation and death.
And sometimes, they change in the other direction. I have an ex-wife in my distant past that I nearly worshipped. Today, however, I think she would look really good if accessorized with a German Shepherd gnawing on her butt.
OP
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Sensei Payne
Black Belt
I hear ya...
Feelings do change, but I can never see them going towards the negitive aspect, only seeing these feelings that I have for her grow stronger
OP
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Sensei Payne
Black Belt
So it has been YEARS since I started this Thread, and I thought I might give an update.
She and I worked out...for a time..Three Years to be exact.
To keep a long story short we broke up...she cheated on me while away at school.
We were engaged...we had a apartment together...
But there is light at the end of the tunnel my friends...my life now couldn't be better!
I moved out of that apartment and moved back home with my parents, then with the money I was saving, got out of a majority of my debt. (Always a work in progress), Got Lasik surgery (I have the vision of a Sniper) and just last January I started Massage Therapy school, and I am half way done with all my classes.
Also I would like to mention that within that time I had lost 50 Lbs total since the break up back in late 2009, started training hardcore again, and not just in the Dojo but also in the Gym, lifting, running, etc. (the Gym was actually a more recent development)
Two years later I am in my first serious realationship since the BIG break up..and she and I have been seeing each other for almost 6 months now, and things are going awesome...and unlike my previous posts back when I was 19/20 years old..i am going approach this with Optimistic caution.
All in all the whole experince has made me stronger. Learned my lessons and building on them. But man reading those old posts...I gotta say.
What the HELL was I thinking!
Cheers!
She and I worked out...for a time..Three Years to be exact.
To keep a long story short we broke up...she cheated on me while away at school.
We were engaged...we had a apartment together...
But there is light at the end of the tunnel my friends...my life now couldn't be better!
I moved out of that apartment and moved back home with my parents, then with the money I was saving, got out of a majority of my debt. (Always a work in progress), Got Lasik surgery (I have the vision of a Sniper) and just last January I started Massage Therapy school, and I am half way done with all my classes.
Also I would like to mention that within that time I had lost 50 Lbs total since the break up back in late 2009, started training hardcore again, and not just in the Dojo but also in the Gym, lifting, running, etc. (the Gym was actually a more recent development)
Two years later I am in my first serious realationship since the BIG break up..and she and I have been seeing each other for almost 6 months now, and things are going awesome...and unlike my previous posts back when I was 19/20 years old..i am going approach this with Optimistic caution.
All in all the whole experince has made me stronger. Learned my lessons and building on them. But man reading those old posts...I gotta say.
What the HELL was I thinking!
Cheers!
Nomad
Master Black Belt
Wisdom is what you have 10 minutes after you needed it...
Also see:
Life is what happens while you're planning for the future!
We all look back at some times in our life and think "Wow... what a naive fool I was! I'd never make those choices again!" But if we hadn't made those choices, we'd likely have missed out on some great times along with the not-so-great, and wouldn't have learned the same lessons.
Learn from the past and make yourself better, but don't let past experiences close off potentially great opportunities in the future.
It's funny when I started reading this thread I didn't realize the beginning was from 2007 until I got your recent post just now! Crazy, but also at the same time very cool that years later we found out what happened. I was getting ready to be another of those "be careful" warning people, but since it was so many years ago I can see it's no longer a relevant warning.
I married my first husband at age 20, so learned my lesson from that. Divorced after 4 years of marriage...most important lesson I learned is don't marry someone who makes promises they can never keep because you think they will change. People will not change for you, you have to love them for you they are from the beginning and once the sparkle in the eyes goes away those empty promises are all broken and you're left with just them.
Now I'm finally with my equal in life and we are engaged to be married next year. Also never say you wish you hadn't done something, because I'm a big believer that we have to live through the crap of this world to find the good and know what is actually good when we come across it!
Blade96
Senior Master
I read this for the first time and I thought RUN AWAY!!
I been there and well...i have already posted my story on this forum.
I kinda thought it would come to that. a break up.
Luckily my story does have a happy ending......my evil ex went off with his new gf and his own dojo and now trains somewhere else.
I am now free to train, hang out with my karate buddies and live my own life. And I passed my orange belt test free from stress except the normal nervousness that comes with gradings.
I am glad i did have a chat with my sensei he never wanted me to leave, he said wait a bit he has his own dojo now, he might leave" which is exactly qwhat happened.
Sensei Payne, Cheers for also learning from your experience as I did.
We're both better off - and wiser for it.
OP
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Sensei Payne
Black Belt
Also never say you wish you hadn't done something, because I'm a big believer that we have to live through the crap of this world to find the good and know what is actually good when we come across it!
I agree completely. I wouldn't be as strong as I am today without those experinces, as troubling as those experinces may have been.
Tempered like Steel!
BTW congrats on the engagement, that whole time is really exciting. All the best to you!
