Losing love of Karate due to excessive Kata at training sessions. rant

[punisher73]

OK, I read the original OP and then read about the first 5 pages of rants about the value of kata.

That had NOTHING to do with what the OP was. Setting aside the value of kata. I can agree and appreciate where he is coming from, AS A PERSON WHO TRAINS AND LOVES KATA. Just putting that out there so this isn't seen as an "anti-kata" post/person.

In some cases, things are done in schools/classes as "filler". You have limited class time and want to maximize it as much as possible. I have seen classes that are filled with warm ups and calisthenics and only about 15-20 minutes of actual instruction. Is conditioning important? Yep, absolutely. Can it be done at home, yep. Kata is important, are there going to be classes that a lot of class time is spent learning a sequence or kata? Yep. BUT, I have also seen classes where a kata is assigned and the instructor wanders off and the student is just left to perform it over and over without feedback or input. After the sequence/kata is learned, could it be possible to do the reps at home and spend more class time drilling and working on applications? Yep.

It sounded to me like the OP just wanted to spend more class time drilling with a partner or sparring than endless repetition of a kata. Again, that had nothing to do with the value of kata training, just different emphasis on limited class time.

 

[Hanzou]

The problem is that that's nothing to do with kata as a training methodology, as (if that's the way you were taught it), that's not training in kata.

That's how we trained in kata at my dojo. I also wouldn't be surprised if that form of teaching kata was fairly widespread. I think it was Kman who said that the Japanese taught a lot of American GIs "children's Karate". I'm starting to believe it.

"Practicality" depends entirely on the context, of course...

Of course.

Hmm… "twerp"? I can see how the respect you had for your teacher continues to today… but more to the point, did you ever stop to think about why they were giving the corrections? I mean… I can get quite pedantic on my students form… for very good reasons.

Well first of all it wasn't my instructor. It was a 12 year old brown belt who went on to become a 14 year old black belt.

And, as far as you can just "feel" when it's right or not, to be honest, I'm not convinced of that… I'd suggest you can certainly feel when you think it's "right"… but your coach standing next to you could often give you a pointer to improve what you're doing… which is really exactly the same as the "twerp" telling you to be aware of where your elbow is.

It's simply different in the grappling arts. If I'm not using my hips correctly in side mount for example, my partner can roll onto their side much easier. You don't get that same feedback from punching and kicking air. This is compounded when you free spar, and you immediately revert back to your natural fighting style.

There were really only two questions… and that post wasn't long, trust me.

The questions are: What do you think kata is actually for, and what it's supposed to give the student? And what "high rank" did you achieve in your Shotokan training?

1. I believe that Kata was originally a living depository of techniques that a karateka should be able to pull from, utilize, and transfer.
2. I achieved Shodan rank. I was that rank for 3 years. At the time of my departure, I was about to test for both my nidan, and instructor certification in a month's time.

 

[Tez3]

OK, I read the original OP and then read about the first 5 pages of rants about the value of kata.

so, when you disagree with something people write it's a 'rant' but you alone understand what the OP despite the fact he was actually quite rude?

That had NOTHING to do with what the OP was. Setting aside the value of kata. I can agree and appreciate where he is coming from, AS A PERSON WHO TRAINS AND LOVES KATA. Just putting that out there so this isn't seen as an "anti-kata" post/person.

No, he was rude, argumentative and even a tad aggressive. if he'd written a less confrontational post where he wasn't stating he knew everything about martial arts and that kata was crap, he would have been received entirely differently. He set the tone of the thread and noticeably he is under review now.

In some cases, things are done in schools/classes as "filler". You have limited class time and want to maximize it as much as possible. I have seen classes that are filled with warm ups and calisthenics and only about 15-20 minutes of actual instruction. Is conditioning important? Yep, absolutely. Can it be done at home, yep. Kata is important, are there going to be classes that a lot of class time is spent learning a sequence or kata? Yep. BUT, I have also seen classes where a kata is assigned and the instructor wanders off and the student is just left to perform it over and over without feedback or input. After the sequence/kata is learned, could it be possible to do the reps at home and spend more class time drilling and working on applications? Yep.

It sounded to me like the OP just wanted to spend more class time drilling with a partner or sparring than endless repetition of a kata. Again, that had nothing to do with the value of kata training, just different emphasis on limited class time.

It sounded to the rest of us, rightly I believe, as someone who thought he knew it all hectoring the rest of us.

 

[Tez3]

That's how we trained in kata at my dojo. I also wouldn't be surprised if that form of teaching kata was fairly widespread. I think it was Kman who said that the Japanese taught a lot of American GIs "children's Karate". I'm starting to believe it.



Of course.



Well first of all it wasn't my instructor. It was a 12 year old brown belt who went on to become a 14 year old black belt.



It's simply different in the grappling arts. If I'm not using my hips correctly in side mount for example, my partner can roll onto their side much easier. You don't get that same feedback from punching and kicking air. This is compounded when you free spar, and you immediately revert back to your natural fighting style.




1. I believe that Kata was originally a living depository of techniques that a karateka should be able to pull from, utilize, and transfer.
2. I achieved Shodan rank. I was that rank for 3 years. At the time of my departure, I was about to test for both my nidan, and instructor certification in a month's time.

If you had a 14 year old blackbelt instructing, how old were you when you received yours?
I would say if you had child instructors no wonder kata wasn't taught properly.

 

[Hanzou]

If you had a 14 year old blackbelt instructing, how old were you when you received yours?
I would say if you had child instructors no wonder kata wasn't taught properly.

I was 26 when I received my black belt.

 

[punisher73]

It sounded to the rest of us, rightly I believe, as someone who thought he knew it all hectoring the rest of us.

Could be right. I saw that "English isn't my first language" and figure "tone" might be lost in translation and subtleties of language. Then him venting about his frustrations and then all the responses were about the importance of kata. I didn't see too many responses about HOW the kata was trained in class or how the rest of class was structured to find out more.

 

[punisher73]

If you had a 14 year old blackbelt instructing, how old were you when you received yours?
I would say if you had child instructors no wonder kata wasn't taught properly.

Can't speak specifically for him, but I have heard many stories of "kids" teaching adults in classes. I have had many people complain about this. For example, my sister studied at a school and was taught by a young child (around 10-12, and she was in her early 20's) and it drove her nuts and was ultimately what made her stop going.

 

[Tez3]

At the risk of starting a whole new argument...please don't lol..... the first sign of it being a McDojo is blackbelts under 18 and children teaching.

Responses of how kata should be taught would have been pointless when the OP said bluntly it shouldn't be taught. You can't argue about how it should be taught when someone thinks it's pointless, useless and ruins karate, it doesn't leave anywhere for the debate to go.

 

[ballen0351]

Could be right. I saw that "English isn't my first language" and figure "tone" might be lost in translation and subtleties of language. Then him venting about his frustrations and then all the responses were about the importance of kata. I didn't see too many responses about HOW the kata was trained in class or how the rest of class was structured to find out more.

None of us are in his class to comment on "how" it is being taught in his class. The best advise we could give was regardless of the methods he needed to remember how important Kata is and remember the benefits.
I'm old school I guess it's my military background I'm more of the quit "venting" shut up and train. If you don't like what's being taught then find a school you like but either way quit your crying and go train. I've done lots of things I don't like but you do it bacause that's what the teacher says. It's his class his school his rules.

 

[Hanzou]

At the risk of starting a whole new argument...please don't lol..... the first sign of it being a McDojo is blackbelts under 18 and children teaching.

No argument there, but to be fair to my former instructor, he was elderly, and he really wanted to motivate the kids he was teaching. Additionally, the kid's parents really pressed him to promote their kid, who was pretty dedicated.

I know that deep down, he didn't want to do it. He just sold out.

 

[ballen0351]

I think it was Kman who said that the Japanese taught a lot of American GIs "children's Karate". I'm starting to believe it.

I'm not sure how true this is. There are enough people around that trained with the masters pre and post war times that are not American GI'S who's kata is the same as they are today. Most of the Okinawan styles are not that old so we have direct links to students of the founders some still alive.

Well first of all it wasn't my instructor. It was a 12 year old brown belt who went on to become a 14 year old black belt.

That sucks. If you found someone actually doing a good job at teaching Kata I think you would have a better impression. Sadly 1st impressions are hard to shake.

It's simply different in the grappling arts. If I'm not using my hips correctly in side mount for example, my partner can roll onto their side much easier. You don't get that same feedback from punching and kicking air.

Sure you do. I can tell by a students foot placment if they have squared their hips, or if they are using good fundamentals. Honestly I can feel if I'm doing my kata properly by where I start the angles I flow into and out of techniques. Where my feet land when I stop. Ect ect. Then I can feel if my elbows are in the right position or my weight is distributed properly as well doing kata and even in bunkai. It's just as responsive as grappling if you know what your looking at.

This is compounded when you free spar, and you immediately revert back to your natural fighting style.

Because kata wasn't made for sparing

 

[Tez3]

None of us are in his class to comment on "how" it is being taught in his class. The best advise we could give was regardless of the methods he needed to remember how important Kata is and remember the benefits.
I'm old school I guess it's my military background I'm more of the quit "venting" shut up and train. If you don't like what's being taught then find a school you like but either way quit your crying and go train. I've done lots of things I don't like but you do it bacause that's what the teacher says. It's his class his school his rules.

Our fitness coach is military ( Scots Guards, he has just finished as the Garrison Sgt.Maj at Camp Bastian, if you saw any footage of the lowering flags at Bastian when it closed down a couple of weeks ago he was the chap behind the flagpole lowering the Union Jack) his favourite saying is 'awa an get yersel a cup of man up' for just about everything. I don't see the OP's point in moaning, if he doesn't like it, find something else. Why moan? Fix it instead.

 

[K-man]

That's how we trained in kata at my dojo. I also wouldn't be surprised if that form of teaching kata was fairly widespread. I think it was Kman who said that the Japanese taught a lot of American GIs "children's Karate". I'm starting to believe it.

1. I believe that Kata was originally a living depository of techniques that a karateka should be able to pull from, utilize, and transfer.

I'm not sure how true this is. There are enough people around that trained with the masters pre and post war times that are not American GI'S who's kata is the same as they are today. Most of the Okinawan styles are not that old so we have direct links to students of the founders some still alive.

Because kata wasn't made for sparing

If you talk to the top Okinawan guys they will tell you. Spending an afternoon talking with Tetsuhiro Hokama Sensei is a time I will always treasure. ( About Hokama Hanshi ) The Jundokan guys say the same thing. I think it is beyond doubt that the early Western karate only taught the basics (kihon) and that is all that was taught in the schools and universities. Certainly there were Westerners training post war who maybe were taught things others were not (I'm not sure about pre-war) but that would have been on the basis that they had proved their sincerity and were trusted to keep the knowledge to themselves. Even today there are peopled saying Taira Sensei shouldn't be sharing with us what he is teaching.

But, none of that is anything to do with the teaching of kata. The kata is the same. Sure it varies from style to style and from one master to another but the kihon kata is the same for everyone. It is what you can learn from the kata that gives kata its value. To me kata is like a travel book. You can look at the pictures and appreciate the beauty or you can read the text and plan your journey. Most people just look at the pictures.
:asian:

 

[ballen0351]

If you talk to the top Okinawan guys they will tell you. Spending an afternoon talking with Tetsuhiro Hokama Sensei is a time I will always treasure. ( About Hokama Hanshi ) The Jundokan guys say the same thing. I think it is beyond doubt that the early Western karate only taught the basics (kihon) and that is all that was taught in the schools and universities. Certainly there were Westerners training post war who maybe were taught things others were not (I'm not sure about pre-war) but that would have been on the basis that they had proved their sincerity and were trusted to keep the knowledge to themselves. Even today there are peopled saying Taira Sensei shouldn't be sharing with us what he is teaching.

So in Goju for example I have trained with for example Higaonna Sensei who has made corrections to my Kata. As you saying he was only taught a watered down version as well? Or that he only teaches a watered down version?

 

[K-man]

So in Goju for example I have trained with for example Higaonna Sensei who has made corrections to my Kata. As you saying he was only taught a watered down version as well? Or that he only teaches a watered down version?

There is a lot of controversy with Higaonna and his relationship with the Jundokan. I have no idea how much he knows. Certainly I have seen no evidence of his teaching beyond the kihon. The correction to kata is an interesting topic as it has been commented on in passing by a number of top guys. There are examples in seminars of one high ranked instructor making a correction to someone's hand position only to have another equally highly ranked instructor change it back. The comment being that in making minor changes to the kata really was irrelevant it the scheme of things. So yes if there is a problem with a position in kata that would influence it effectiveness it should be corrected but if it is cosmetic it really doesn't matter. As an example of something that might be corrected here are two videos of Gekisai dai ichi. The first one is similar to how we were taught to perform the kata in Goju Kai. The second, by Morio Higaonna, is how we have been instructed it should be performed.

Learn Gekisai Dai Ichi - Kata for Goju-Ryu Karate - Black Belt Wiki

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vKLX3tZN1JQ

There is a subtle difference and my kata was only recently corrected from the first to the second and the reason for the correction is quite obvious when you think about it, just that I was training the first way for over 30 years. Not wanting to put pressure on you or to be a smartarse, can you tell the difference? Lolly for the first person to pick it up in the next little while or I will point out the difference shortly.
:asian:

 

[ballen0351]

There is a lot of controversy with Higaonna and his relationship with the Jundokan. I have no idea how much he knows. Certainly I have seen no evidence of his teaching beyond the kihon. The correction to kata is an interesting topic as it has been commented on in passing by a number of top guys. There are examples in seminars of one high ranked instructor making a correction to someone's hand position only to have another equally highly ranked instructor change it back. The comment being that in making minor changes to the kata really was irrelevant it the scheme of things. So yes if there is a problem with a position in kata that would influence it effectiveness it should be corrected but if it is cosmetic it really doesn't matter. As an example of something that might be corrected here are two videos of Gekisai dai ichi. The first one is similar to how we were taught to perform the kata in Goju Kai. The second, by Morio Higaonna, is how we have been instructed it should be performed.

Learn Gekisai Dai Ichi - Kata for Goju-Ryu Karate - Black Belt Wiki

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vKLX3tZN1JQ

There is a subtle difference and my kata was only recently corrected from the first to the second and the reason for the correction is quite obvious when you think about it, just that I was training the first way for over 30 years. Not wanting to put pressure on you or to be a smartarse, can you tell the difference? Lolly for the first person to pick it up in the next little while or I will point out the difference shortly.
:asian:

I was using Higaonnna more as an exaple. I guess I was trying to say are the heads of Goju today be it IOGKF or Jundokan or Okinawa Goju Ryu Karate Do Kenkyu Kai teaching different then what Chojun Miyagi? (Besides individual changes between organizations) When I see something like "well karate today was watered down for Americans and school kids" I wonder then what are these heads teaching? Is this the watered down version or not? I'm not disagreeing with you I don't known the answer I'm not as knowledgeable on the History of Goju as I wish I was.

 

[ballen0351]

Im on a phone so it's hard to see the videos but are they both Higaonna? On my small screen it both looks like him

 

[ballen0351]

By the way if we need to move to a new topic or PM thats fine this is interesting to me

 

[K-man]

Im on a phone so it's hard to see the videos but are they both Higaonna? On my small screen it both looks like him

Looks similar but pretty sure it's not him. The style is different although it is a hybrid of the Okinawan and Japanese kata. I'll wait until you have a chance to look at it on a larger screen.
:asian:

 

[ballen0351]

Looks similar but pretty sure it's not him. The style is different although it is a hybrid of the Okinawan and Japanese kata. I'll wait until you have a chance to look at it on a larger screen.
:asian:

Yeah I'll look later tonight when I get home but that clip was posted by an IOGKF dojo if you let it run to the end it's advertising for a NY city dojo and has the IOGKF logo.