Losing love of Karate due to excessive Kata at training sessions. rant

That's how we trained in kata at my dojo. I also wouldn't be surprised if that form of teaching kata was fairly widespread. I think it was Kman who said that the Japanese taught a lot of American GIs "children's Karate". I'm starting to believe it.

Cool. The point we were making, though, is that just because the training method isn't properly utilised in your dojo, or others, doesn't invalidate the training methodology itself… that said, I personally feel that kata training is one of the least properly understood training methodologies out there (as seen in karate and similar systems), while simultaneously being the most important in those arts.

With regards to "children's karate", I don't know that it's restricted to just the early US Gi's who were given that… when Funakoshi went to Japan, he wasn't the best karate-ka around, nor the most knowledgable… and many reports suggest that he didn't teach, or emphasise, much beyond "here is the sequence of moves" when it came to kata. Then you have specific kata that were developed specifically for children, such as the Gekisai forms, and the Heian/Pinan forms (which were simplified from earlier kata to make it easier for young children to remember/perform). In a real sense, most karate around is "children's karate" when looked at in this light, if we're to use such terms.

Of course.

My point was that you were exposed to a different contextual "practicality"… so it wasn't that your earlier training necessarily lacked it (it may have, it may not), but it may have been addressing a different form of practicality that wasn't recognised.

Well first of all it wasn't my instructor. It was a 12 year old brown belt who went on to become a 14 year old black belt. ;)

When you were in your 20's? Well, firstly, labelling a 12 year old kid who is doing what he thinks is correct a "twerp" might not be the most charitable thing you could do… but, more realistically, I'd question what real education you would receive from someone that young… sure, they might have had some idea of how it was supposed to be done (the kata), but I'd question the level of their understanding as to "why"… as a result, I'm not overtly shocked that such a training experience was not optimal for you… but again, that's not the fault of kata training, but of the lack of any real depth or understanding in the way it was presented to you (in that instance).

It's simply different in the grappling arts. If I'm not using my hips correctly in side mount for example, my partner can roll onto their side much easier.

Just a reminder here, my arts are largely grappling based… not ground, but grappling (as the term itself is defined)… as well as having a striking component. My point is that, well, no, it's not different. You, on a personal level, get more readily identifiable feedback in your grappling system… that doesn't mean anything other than that you get more readily identifiable feedback there. I can just as easily point out where there's an issue with a students form when they're doing something solo, with a partner, striking, grappling, ground work, weapon work, or anything else. And even when they think they've got it, and are in the right position, I can tweak it and improve it… or point out where they think they're safe, but aren't.

With regards to your side-mount example, sure, I can see how you can come to that conclusion… but it's going to have as much to do with who you're rolling with at the time… or if you're even rolling at all (or just running drills). Someone less experienced, for example, might not know to turn to their side… or how to… and let you get away with something that doesn't necessarily "work" at it's optimal level. To pick up on that, a coach standing over you, telling you to adjust your hips, or your arms, or whatever, is the same as the kid telling you to mind your elbows. Of course, the immediate results might be far clearer to you in your grappling form… but that doesn't mean that the kata correction was less practical, effective, or correct.

You don't get that same feedback from punching and kicking air.

Again, that's very subjective… speaking personally, I get a lot of feedback from doing things solo… and can recognise when my balance is off, when I'm open where I shouldn't be, when my power is lacking, and so on.

This is compounded when you free spar, and you immediately revert back to your natural fighting style.

Ah, well, that's getting to it, isn't it? Why would you be reverting to something that isn't what you're learning when you free spar? To me, that's a complete failure of the training… and one reason I'm not fond of sparring, particularly early on...

1. I believe that Kata was originally a living depository of techniques that a karateka should be able to pull from, utilize, and transfer.

Okay, cool. I'd suggest that that's not the reality there… the idea isn't of a collection of techniques, it's more that it's giving you tactical applications of techniques. The techniques you should already have the execution of down… what kata gives you is the consistency and understood/developed methods of applying them… rather than relying on random, inconsistent personal explorations.

But here's the thing… in sports, personal explorations are the standard… each person is trying to find what helps them be successful against others trying the same thing… but when learning a particular approach/system, you don't want the results to be so random, which is where kata comes into it. The problem is when both are seen as the same thing… or when one is seen as being even related to the other… which is where you've been coming from. Kata is about learning the approach and tactical methodology of the system itself… learning to do the art the way it's intended… sparring/sports methodology is about trying things to see what works "for you"… which is far more random in it's ability to generate success.

In other words, kata is teaching you karate… sparring isn't. The two are almost completely unrelated.

2. I achieved Shodan rank. I was that rank for 3 years. At the time of my departure, I was about to test for both my nidan, and instructor certification in a month's time.

Cool, thanks. Of course, as you know, many won't consider that a "high rank"… we'd be more looking at 5th Dan and higher… but that's where I thought you were meaning.
 
If you want to make your "head lock" work, you have to master 20 other skills such as, twist, spring, lift, block, cut, over hook, crack, ... The reason is simple, your opponent may respond in 20 different ways. For each of his responds, you should have a good follow up move for it. For each of his counters for your follow up, you will need to have your counter for his counter as well.
I hear what you are saying and on one level agree with you but with respect to your comments on the need for follow up counters to counters, I wager that you are no longer talking about simply putting on a good head lock, you are talking about being a well-rounded fighter. That is a different thing.
You can choose to simply train in a very few techniques that you find effective (for whatever reason). You can absolutely make that headlock work without the need for worrying about numerous follow ups with various different counters or different techniques. You drill and train that headlock and the timing and distance skills for employing it effectively. You don't just throw these techniques out there willy nilly, you wait until they are "on". You simply "do" when the moment is there. For whatever reason, and in keeping with your headlock example, one of my favourite and often effective moves which I have used in freestyle and mma and also sparring is a front headlock or guillotine into suplex where I end up in mount for ground and pound or I separate for a head kick (often actually harder as grapplers can be such quick scramblers). When I throw the headlock it is going on, if it is deflected or countered I am then doing something entirely different but it is no longer about the headlock.

Also, there is no reason why each of your opponent's moves cannot be responded to with just a few moves of your own, provided you got those moves down. One move in itself can be used against a great variety of differing attacks or openings.
 
That's how we trained in kata at my dojo. I also wouldn't be surprised if that form of teaching kata was fairly widespread. I think it was Kman who said that the Japanese taught a lot of American GIs "children's Karate". I'm starting to believe it.

I made that statement. Many of the early pioneers of karate maintained that the essence of all karate was in the kata. In fact, Uechi Kanbun Sensei stated that to know the kata Seisan was to know all of karate. Many others maintained that 1-3 kata was really all that was needed for a lifetime of training. The point being that, generally speaking, kata training isn't what it once was. So the question becomes, 'why the paradigm shift'? How did kata go from being the foundational cornerstone of karate to a class-filler that many consider a complete waste of time?

My belief (and that of many) is that there are several factors. First, when sport is added to an art, or sport takes the major role in the art, the training changes. If the sport looks akin to a kickboxing match, you don't need locks and chokes and throws and cavity pressing etc. So emphasis is added to one component of the training while de-emphasising or eliminating other components. Secondly, as mentioned in one of my earlier posts, Itosu Sensei reworked the Pinan katas for children's consumption. I will differ slightly with Chris in that I feel the Pinan katas were designed for adults and then relabled/watered down for children and that the children's version is what was widely taught after WWII. Thus an instructor can only teach what he/she were taught themselves. So now we've had many generations of karateka that really know only the block-punch-kick side of karate with perhaps a bit of the other stuff sprinkled in here and there. That is a general statement and there are exceptions of course.

Lastly, the methodology of training has changed. In the 'old' days, training was more focused and intense. As I've mentioned often, Uechi Sensei, while learning Sanchin kata (Uechi version) spent hours a day for many months just training the opening movements of the kata. Not the whole kata, just the opening movements. How powerful/intense/focused could you be in these movements if it were your sole focus for hours a day for weeks and months? Answer...you'd get quite good at it. But nowadays a form can be learned in a single class session because you only train a couple of times a week and you're going to need to know that kata for the next colored belt test in a month or so. So kata is relegated to the 'boring-why I'm I doing this crap-class filler for the next test' portion of training.

Kata, whether passed along from instructor to student in it's original intent or whether it's been reversed engineered is dynamic, interesting and informative. One 'should' literally be able to take just a portion of a kata (waza) and train it for months due to the information contained therein. And not just limited to the original movements. It teaches concepts, strategies and tactics more than just limited movements. If a portion of the kata is demonstrating a lock in one plane of travel, it will also work in another plane. So a standing shoulder lock can be performed standing, kneeling, prone etc because it is the principle of locking that the kata holds, not just a limited technique.

This is why karate is a:

  • Striking art
  • Kicking art
  • Grappling art
  • Ground fighting art
  • Locking art
  • Throwing art
  • Pressure point art
  • Etc
Karate can be, and should be a one-stop-shop art. You really want to get good at the ground game....karate is the answer. You really want to get good at locks and throws....karate is the art you're looking for. And so on. Because of the modern paradigm it's sometimes hard to get your brain wrapped around it.

"Don't go to the ground with this guy...he knows karate"!

Or let's really go the extra step, "Don't go to the ground with this guy...he knows Taekwondo"!

But if either karate or TKD were trained as they could be, and have been in the past it wouldn't sound odd at all.
 
I made that statement. Many of the early pioneers of karate maintained that the essence of all karate was in the kata. In fact, Uechi Kanbun Sensei stated that to know the kata Seisan was to know all of karate. Many others maintained that 1-3 kata was really all that was needed for a lifetime of training. The point being that, generally speaking, kata training isn't what it once was. So the question becomes, 'why the paradigm shift'? How did kata go from being the foundational cornerstone of karate to a class-filler that many consider a complete waste of time?

My belief (and that of many) is that there are several factors. First, when sport is added to an art, or sport takes the major role in the art, the training changes. If the sport looks akin to a kickboxing match, you don't need locks and chokes and throws and cavity pressing etc. So emphasis is added to one component of the training while de-emphasising or eliminating other components. Secondly, as mentioned in one of my earlier posts, Itosu Sensei reworked the Pinan katas for children's consumption. I will differ slightly with Chris in that I feel the Pinan katas were designed for adults and then relabled/watered down for children and that the children's version is what was widely taught after WWII. Thus an instructor can only teach what he/she were taught themselves. So now we've had many generations of karateka that really know only the block-punch-kick side of karate with perhaps a bit of the other stuff sprinkled in here and there. That is a general statement and there are exceptions of course.

Lastly, the methodology of training has changed. In the 'old' days, training was more focused and intense. As I've mentioned often, Uechi Sensei, while learning Sanchin kata (Uechi version) spent hours a day for many months just training the opening movements of the kata. Not the whole kata, just the opening movements. How powerful/intense/focused could you be in these movements if it were your sole focus for hours a day for weeks and months? Answer...you'd get quite good at it. But nowadays a form can be learned in a single class session because you only train a couple of times a week and you're going to need to know that kata for the next colored belt test in a month or so. So kata is relegated to the 'boring-why I'm I doing this crap-class filler for the next test' portion of training.

Kata, whether passed along from instructor to student in it's original intent or whether it's been reversed engineered is dynamic, interesting and informative. One 'should' literally be able to take just a portion of a kata (waza) and train it for months due to the information contained therein. And not just limited to the original movements. It teaches concepts, strategies and tactics more than just limited movements. If a portion of the kata is demonstrating a lock in one plane of travel, it will also work in another plane. So a standing shoulder lock can be performed standing, kneeling, prone etc because it is the principle of locking that the kata holds, not just a limited technique.

This is why karate is a:

  • Striking art
  • Kicking art
  • Grappling art
  • Ground fighting art
  • Locking art
  • Throwing art
  • Pressure point art
  • Etc
Karate can be, and should be a one-stop-shop art. You really want to get good at the ground game....karate is the answer. You really want to get good at locks and throws....karate is the art you're looking for. And so on. Because of the modern paradigm it's sometimes hard to get your brain wrapped around it.

"Don't go to the ground with this guy...he knows karate"!

Or let's really go the extra step, "Don't go to the ground with this guy...he knows Taekwondo"!

But if either karate or TKD were trained as they could be, and have been in the past it wouldn't sound odd at all.

karate does not tend to represent well in grappling competition though.

haven't seen much bjj in k1 either.
 
Let's not kid ourselves here.

Some karate styles such as goju ryu (at certain clubs) do work on actual grappling and throw components but many styles do not at all. I have trained at quite a few kyokoshin clubs as I used to enter into their tournaments and I never ever saw any grappling aspects. Even those that have more of a focus like "some" goju clubs do not spend nearly as much time rolling as a jujitsu or bjj club, so it makes complete sense that a bjj or wrestler is hopefully going to lick the floor with a karate guy in a pure grappling sense or possibly even freestyle forum unless that karate guy has done extra grappling/submission training or also has a background in this (which of course is done but not as a mainstream component of most karate).

The opposite also applies, if it is purely stand up/striking, then unless your bjj guy has significantly supplemented his bjj training with striking, he is going to get laid out when facing a karate opponent.

Seems patently obvious to me.
 
karate does not tend to represent well in grappling competition though.

haven't seen much bjj in k1 either.

This illustrates my point(s).

First, the full aspect of Karate isn't normally trained because most instructors don't know it exists. But it is in the kata(s) if one wishes to utilize it.

Secondly, you are confusing sport competition with practical, real world Karate. Two different animals. Kata wasn't designed for competition. It was designed for the real world and contains elements, techniques, concepts, tactics and strategies that aren't allowed in competition. It is designed to end a violent encounter in short order, with an economy of motion and usually in brutal fashion. As an example of what I'm referring to, joint manipulation really began as joint destruction and then was taken down a notch for application in less-than-lethal situations.

So really, Karate shouldn't do well in a grappling venue for these two reasons. But in a real world violent encounter there is no reason that it could not be effective, whether standing or on the ground. Correct training for the appropriate venue.
 
I made that statement. Many of the early pioneers of karate maintained that the essence of all karate was in the kata. In fact, Uechi Kanbun Sensei stated that to know the kata Seisan was to know all of karate. Many others maintained that 1-3 kata was really all that was needed for a lifetime of training. The point being that, generally speaking, kata training isn't what it once was. So the question becomes, 'why the paradigm shift'? How did kata go from being the foundational cornerstone of karate to a class-filler that many consider a complete waste of time?
I have also made that statement on many occasions and made reference to 'advanced beginners', a term I would attribute to a Goju guy called Dave Oddy. Knowing what I know now I doubt I have time left to learn even three kata. I wish I knew thirty years ago what kata were really about. How did it get to where it is today? Simple. It was taught as a series of techniques to perfect the stances, hand positions etc that have very little to do with practicality. The real reason for kata was told to people but the explanation was not offered. Therefore we knew it was for fighting but we didn't have the first clue as to how you would use it.

My belief (and that of many) is that there are several factors. First, when sport is added to an art, or sport takes the major role in the art, the training changes. If the sport looks akin to a kickboxing match, you don't need locks and chokes and throws and cavity pressing etc. So emphasis is added to one component of the training while de-emphasising or eliminating other components.
With sport came rules. Karate devolved into punching and kicking from a distance of two metres like the videos Hanzou delights in claiming is real karate. Very little time was devoted to the other elements. However, those other elements are still evident in the kata if you go looking.

Secondly, as mentioned in one of my earlier posts, Itosu Sensei reworked the Pinan katas for children's consumption. I will differ slightly with Chris in that I feel the Pinan katas were designed for adults and then relabled/watered down for children and that the children's version is what was widely taught after WWII. Thus an instructor can only teach what he/she were taught themselves. So now we've had many generations of karateka that really know only the block-punch-kick side of karate with perhaps a bit of the other stuff sprinkled in here and there. That is a general statement and there are exceptions of course.
But true nevertheless.

Lastly, the methodology of training has changed. In the 'old' days, training was more focused and intense. As I've mentioned often, Uechi Sensei, while learning Sanchin kata (Uechi version) spent hours a day for many months just training the opening movements of the kata. Not the whole kata, just the opening movements. How powerful/intense/focused could you be in these movements if it were your sole focus for hours a day for weeks and months? Answer...you'd get quite good at it. But nowadays a form can be learned in a single class session because you only train a couple of times a week and you're going to need to know that kata for the next colored belt test in a month or so. So kata is relegated to the 'boring-why I'm I doing this crap-class filler for the next test' portion of training.
Yes, but what was he learning? A simple form, such as Sanchin ,can be learned in 5 or 10 minutes. What is in Sanchin can take many years to understand. Sanchin and Tensho are the internal kata of Goju Ryu. You don't get good at it. You actually learn what is required to make your karate effective.

Kata, whether passed along from instructor to student in it's original intent or whether it's been reversed engineered is dynamic, interesting and informative. One 'should' literally be able to take just a portion of a kata (waza) and train it for months due to the information contained therein. And not just limited to the original movements. It teaches concepts, strategies and tactics more than just limited movements. If a portion of the kata is demonstrating a lock in one plane of travel, it will also work in another plane. So a standing shoulder lock can be performed standing, kneeling, prone etc because it is the principle of locking that the kata holds, not just a limited technique.
Sure.

This is why karate is a:
  • Striking art
  • Kicking art
  • Grappling art
  • Ground fighting art
  • Locking art
  • Throwing art
  • Pressure point art
  • Etc
I agree with all but the ground fighting bit. I have yet to see anyone demonstrate that to my satisfaction. Well, yes, against an untrained person on the ground a karate guy is fine, but reality says that we are not in the same class as specialist ground fighters.

Karate can be, and should be a one-stop-shop art. You really want to get good at the ground game....karate is the answer. You really want to get good at locks and throws....karate is the art you're looking for. And so on. Because of the modern paradigm it's sometimes hard to get your brain wrapped around it.

"Don't go to the ground with this guy...he knows karate"!

Or let's really go the extra step, "Don't go to the ground with this guy...he knows Taekwondo"!

But if either karate or TKD were trained as they could be, and have been in the past it wouldn't sound odd at all.
Mmm! Maybe. My ground skills are way behind the skilful BJJ guys and I'm not sure in the past the karate masters spent much time grappling. If that was the case why did Ei'ichi Miyazato learn Judo to 7th Dan level. Masaji Taira is 4th dan Judo. If grappling was a big part of karate why didn't Chojun Miyagi teach it to Miyazato? I think we need to be mindful of the areas of expertise in a system and the areas of weakness. Karate is not designed for ground fighting. Sure you can use many of the techniques on the ground but the basic premise for us is 'don't go to the ground and if you do get back to your feet ASAP'.

With regards to "children's karate", I don't know that it's restricted to just the early US Gi's who were given that… when Funakoshi went to Japan, he wasn't the best karate-ka around, nor the most knowledgable… and many reports suggest that he didn't teach, or emphasise, much beyond "here is the sequence of moves" when it came to kata. Then you have specific kata that were developed specifically for children, such as the Gekisai forms, and the Heian/Pinan forms (which were simplified from earlier kata to make it easier for young children to remember/perform). In a real sense, most karate around is "children's karate" when looked at in this light, if we're to use such terms.
The Heian/Pinan kata were certainly designed to teach. That is pretty much what Yamaguchi did with his Taikyoku kata but the difference is that the Yamaguchi kata were for teaching basics where the Pinan kata were adapted by Itosu to teach much more than basic technique. His kata were adapted from older kata whereas Yamaguchi's were set basic pattern with footwork linked to a particular stance, strike and block.

But the Gekisai kata are totally different. They really are kata you can use in a fight in many different ways. Because they are Kyu grade kata we spend a lot of time with them and I am constantly amazed at their depth, particularly when Taira Sansei is around. :) So I would disagree with the notion that they were designed specifically for children. Simple? Sure, but full of content.


In other words, kata is teaching you karate… sparring isn't. The two are almost completely unrelated.
So true!
 

  • I agree with all but the ground fighting bit. I have yet to see anyone demonstrate that to my satisfaction. Well, yes, against an untrained person on the ground a karate guy is fine, but reality says that we are not in the same class as specialist ground fighters.

Depends upon the venue. If we're talking a sport venue then I agree with you 100%. BJJ is a premier ground fighting art. Primarily for competition, but elements can be used in self defense. Sport BJJ is what generally gets the press though, with good reason. Whereas the ground fighting found in kata is not intended for the sporting venue. Put a guy well versed in true karate ground fighting against a BJJ practitioner who also trains for self defense and it may be a matter of 'who gets there first with the most'. In this case, we're not looking at two people looking to get an arm bar or cross body mount on the other. Rather it is more towards punching into the throat, gouging the eye, hooking the clavicle or destroying a joint or sensitive area i.e. something to end the fight in seconds. Rather than submitting the opponent, the karateka is looking to maim or kill the attacker so they can get back up immediately.

But certainly karate doesn't 'specialize' in ground fighting to the extent of an art like BJJ (whether the training is sport or street). But I would toss out that it wasn't designed specifically to be used against a specialist but rather an unarmed civilian method of self defense.
 
I agree with all but the ground fighting bit.
Yes, that I disagree with as well. Karate is quite good for stand-up fighting purposes, but not for ground fighting. Sure, people have added ground-fighting to their karate, but that's still a later addition
 
Yes, that I disagree with as well. Karate is quite good for stand-up fighting purposes, but not for ground fighting. Sure, people have added ground-fighting to their karate, but that's still a later addition

With respect, I'd have to disagree with you on this. I'll use locking techniques to illustrate why I take this position. In the past, the opening movement of Pinan Shodan has been discussed to demonstrate a shoulder lock that can be quite effective. The lock demonstrated is in a standing position, however, the principle of the lock can be effectively used while in a prone position as well. In either instance, this joint lock when applied as a joint destruction is going to do a vast amount of damage to the rotator cuff and various attached muscles.

So no, the kata in this instance does not specifically show a move-by-move on the ground, but the principle demonstrated can be used on the ground. This is why just a small section of a kata can be dissected into a plethora of additional training. I stress that exacting movements aren't necessarily the goal of a kata over and above the principle(s) behind the movement. Seisan kata has a movement that involves hooking the clavicle in a fashion to cause major damage and of course pain. Again, demonstrated as a standing attack but of course can also be done on the ground.

I want to make it clear that I'm not saying a karate kata will enable you to enter a BJJ tourney and win. Wrong training for the wrong venue. What I am saying is that for the purpose for which karate was designed i.e. personal self defense against (normally) unarmed people in a real world setting, kata contains the information to effectively ground fight. Depends upon the knowledge base of the instructor and how far they wish to take the information contained in a kata.

From a self defense perspective, I would suggest that indeed one should take a kata and wring it out for every drop of information it contains. Take a segment and say to the student:

  • Can this be used standing (as in someone is throwing a punch at you)?
  • Can this be used standing (as in grappling)?
  • Can this be used on the ground?
  • Can this be used from a position of disadvantage?
  • Can this be used as a less-than-lethal option?
Etc.
 
Depends upon the venue. If we're talking a sport venue then I agree with you 100%. BJJ is a premier ground fighting art. Primarily for competition, but elements can be used in self defense. Sport BJJ is what generally gets the press though, with good reason. Whereas the ground fighting found in kata is not intended for the sporting venue. Put a guy well versed in true karate ground fighting against a BJJ practitioner who also trains for self defense and it may be a matter of 'who gets there first with the most'. In this case, we're not looking at two people looking to get an arm bar or cross body mount on the other. Rather it is more towards punching into the throat, gouging the eye, hooking the clavicle or destroying a joint or sensitive area i.e. something to end the fight in seconds. Rather than submitting the opponent, the karateka is looking to maim or kill the attacker so they can get back up immediately.

One of the things that the BJJ pioneers determined early on is that the fighter who can establish and maintain positional dominance has a huge advantage when it comes to throat punching, eye gouging, and the like. This is where the expertise of the specialist comes into play.

But certainly karate doesn't 'specialize' in ground fighting to the extent of an art like BJJ (whether the training is sport or street). But I would toss out that it wasn't designed specifically to be used against a specialist but rather an unarmed civilian method of self defense.

This is the key. There is a difference between the way an untrained person intent on an assault will attack you and the way a skilled martial artist in a "dueling" mindset will attack you. This is what Hanzou is missing when he asks why you don't see karateka in a sparring match use Abernathy's bunkai. It's not really anything much to do with the real applications being too deadly for sparring or anything like that. It's that the attacks you are countering are different. The BJJ curriculum includes a number of highly effective counters to a headlock. You rarely see these techniques in BJJ tournaments because it's very rare for someone to use a street style headlock in competition, so there is no need for the counter. What I've seen of most karate bunkai is that sort of thing - intended for use against close range, untrained attacks.
 
By the way I have no idea what the pic proves I just thought it was cool and wanted to post it LOL
 
That picture looks like it's from a takedown, which, to me at least, is not ground fighting. I am not familiar with Goju kata, but that looks similar in concept to the opening move of Gojushiho
Wait so putting people on the ground isn't part of ground fighting?
 
Wait so putting people on the ground isn't part of ground fighting?

I think the usual way of using the term is that "ground fighting" is what happens after you put someone on the ground. Takedowns are a necessary precursor to ground fighting, but not necessarily part of it.
 
I think the usual way of using the term is that "ground fighting" is what happens after you put someone on the ground. Takedowns are a necessary precursor to ground fighting, but not necessarily part of it.

With respect Tony, I have to disagree with this. Being able to put someone on the ground is an instrumental and foundational part of ground fighting. Indeed, we don't just start on the ground in a fight or in a competition. And learning how to take someone down for positioning ON the ground is also foundational. You really can't have one without the other. The are part and parcel of the same training.
 
You could say that you can teach takedowns without ground fighting, but you can't teach ground fighting without takedowns.

Depending on how you take someone to the ground determines the positioning you'll have on the ground. Just something to toss out there.
:)
 
With respect, I'd have to disagree with you on this.
That's fine, but I am basing my opinion on the fact that neither the oral tradition of the old masters nor (to the best of my knowledge) any of the current Okinawan masters teach how to use the kata once you go to the ground. Takedowns, sure, but no ground fighting. Just an example, Minoru Higa, the head of Shorin ryu Kyudokan, is apparently a 4. dan in judo and yet he only teaches stand-up fighting.
Can some of the techniques in kata be used in ground fighting? Probably, but to me that is more of a coincidence or the limitations of the human body than design.
Learning how to fight on the ground would be quite beneficial, but to learn that my suggestion is to enroll in a dojo that teaches judo or BJJ. Personally, I might go to a BJJ club next year, after all, I have two of those within a 500 m from where I live :)
 
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