As Doc has already mentioned they are not techniques, but let me attest to the effectiveness of the individual movements. The block/horiz punch takes on an entirely new meaning when Doc enlightens you as to the applications of these movements. Old forms become new all over again.
Long 2 finger pokes
- Thread starter Kenpo_man
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MisterMike
Guest
Bode said:
Well, I haven't seen where he said that, and I wasn't criticizing the effectiveness of these bits of motion, except as used or looked at as a technique, as many other posters had done previously.
Can you have a student stand with their arm out holding a fist and slam into them with a vertical block and simultaneous punch? Yes. But that does not comprse a technique, but was rather intended as a category of motion to be studied. As soon as you put a person on the other side of the basics forms (Short 1 - Long 2) you can miss the point of learning the Basics.
When you actually LOOK at the MOTION you are doing, you will begin to see what the forms are teaching, and as a big hint, look at the list Mr. Billings posted. Trying to put a body to some of these and expecting it to "work" is only a superficial way of looking at it. I'm not saying they have NO application, but rather hoping someone would actually look a little deeper at how the forms were put together.
kevin kilroe
Orange Belt
but...but...I DONT UNDERSTAND!!!
KENPOJOE
Brown Belt
Hi folks!
I've been reading this thread for awhile and finally found some time to address this particular thread...(dusting off my soapbox) :soapbox:
In regards to the "triple immortal man" strike section of Long Form 2:
The original poster mentions about utilizing a thrusting sweep kick with the rear leg into the front twist stance with the rear leg as you utilize a rear hand overhead punch [palm down] [or "smothering punch] {note: you can compound the punch action over your opponent's guard by using the fore knuckles of the closed fist to rake the bridge of the opponent's nose-as in Hung Gar's "tiger paw (as opposed to claw)}. Many Kenpoist do not use the thrusting sweep but simply use the a step through foot manuver into the front twist stance. REMEMBER: "A kick is nothing more than an exagerated step" so it's easy to perform that motion, but it was not the way that Mr. Parker had taught it to me on the times we worked on long 2. BTW, some kenpoists also compound the motion by using a push down block with lead hand as the rear hand executes the overhead punch.
From that point you execute a step through foot manuver a left neutral bow, you execute a left "extended upward" block [because you already perform the "inward-outward-upward-downward" formula taught in the previous forms] In short 2 we utilize the extended outward block as the "new block" that is introduced in that particular form. Now, in Long form 2, we introduce several new elements in section, the "extended outward" block is showing how to block on the angle between an extended outward block and an upward block, also, this action is used offensively, so that you strike your opponent's chin on the oscure angle with the uppercut action to drive our opponent's head up and back, then use the "extended upward" forearm check to maintain the lifted head as I push underneath the jaw, Then, I open my hand in a checking action so the back of my hand braces against the side of his face and "frames" the face {"framing"} [gee, doesn't that look like the motion be do for darting leaves in form 4? Hummmm...](REMEMBER: your opponent is being lifted up and driving back, and is off balance) We then thread the right vertical thrusting [not snapping]2 finger poke ("Immortal man") along the forearm so that the right hand's fingers go into the left eye, then place your left hand along the inside of your forearm so as to "track" along said forearm and then thrust the left fingers into the right eye and insure your fingers are not jammed on your opponent's nose. you then place your right hand on the inside of the other forearm and strike with a third finger thrust. The last two alternating actions resemble a "pump gun' on a battleship [ofr the alternating pump gun lasers on the death star of the film "star wars"] The reason traditionally in the chinese martial arts that there are three actions are to insure that on the strong side of a technique, the right hand begins and ends the sequence of actions. In ancient times, it was considered bad luck to end a series of actions on the left side. This also frees the left hand [weak side] free to do the opposite side of the given technique or sequence of actions.
In regards to the "eagle claw" version mentioned by Mr. Chapel, the hand would strike the face in a vertical fashion with the 2 fingers grabbing the side of the face and/or ear as you drive the thumb into the eye. Very effective! Reminds me of Count Dante and his "world's deadliest fighting secrects" text {Btw, after John Keehan(Dante) left Robert Trias, He went to Ed Parker!}
:::getting off my soapbox :soapbox:
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE
I've been reading this thread for awhile and finally found some time to address this particular thread...(dusting off my soapbox) :soapbox:
In regards to the "triple immortal man" strike section of Long Form 2:
The original poster mentions about utilizing a thrusting sweep kick with the rear leg into the front twist stance with the rear leg as you utilize a rear hand overhead punch [palm down] [or "smothering punch] {note: you can compound the punch action over your opponent's guard by using the fore knuckles of the closed fist to rake the bridge of the opponent's nose-as in Hung Gar's "tiger paw (as opposed to claw)}. Many Kenpoist do not use the thrusting sweep but simply use the a step through foot manuver into the front twist stance. REMEMBER: "A kick is nothing more than an exagerated step" so it's easy to perform that motion, but it was not the way that Mr. Parker had taught it to me on the times we worked on long 2. BTW, some kenpoists also compound the motion by using a push down block with lead hand as the rear hand executes the overhead punch.
From that point you execute a step through foot manuver a left neutral bow, you execute a left "extended upward" block [because you already perform the "inward-outward-upward-downward" formula taught in the previous forms] In short 2 we utilize the extended outward block as the "new block" that is introduced in that particular form. Now, in Long form 2, we introduce several new elements in section, the "extended outward" block is showing how to block on the angle between an extended outward block and an upward block, also, this action is used offensively, so that you strike your opponent's chin on the oscure angle with the uppercut action to drive our opponent's head up and back, then use the "extended upward" forearm check to maintain the lifted head as I push underneath the jaw, Then, I open my hand in a checking action so the back of my hand braces against the side of his face and "frames" the face {"framing"} [gee, doesn't that look like the motion be do for darting leaves in form 4? Hummmm...](REMEMBER: your opponent is being lifted up and driving back, and is off balance) We then thread the right vertical thrusting [not snapping]2 finger poke ("Immortal man") along the forearm so that the right hand's fingers go into the left eye, then place your left hand along the inside of your forearm so as to "track" along said forearm and then thrust the left fingers into the right eye and insure your fingers are not jammed on your opponent's nose. you then place your right hand on the inside of the other forearm and strike with a third finger thrust. The last two alternating actions resemble a "pump gun' on a battleship [ofr the alternating pump gun lasers on the death star of the film "star wars"] The reason traditionally in the chinese martial arts that there are three actions are to insure that on the strong side of a technique, the right hand begins and ends the sequence of actions. In ancient times, it was considered bad luck to end a series of actions on the left side. This also frees the left hand [weak side] free to do the opposite side of the given technique or sequence of actions.
In regards to the "eagle claw" version mentioned by Mr. Chapel, the hand would strike the face in a vertical fashion with the 2 fingers grabbing the side of the face and/or ear as you drive the thumb into the eye. Very effective! Reminds me of Count Dante and his "world's deadliest fighting secrects" text {Btw, after John Keehan(Dante) left Robert Trias, He went to Ed Parker!}
:::getting off my soapbox :soapbox:
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE
KENPOJOE
Brown Belt
Thanks Doc!Doc said:Very few people would recognize that as not so much as "finger pokes," but as "Immortal Man Pointing" strikes.
We've met before and broke bread together [along with Edmund] and you been kind enough to contribute to my kenpo patch collection as well as the bumper sticker for the Ed Parker Museum [which will come to fruition in a virtual format] and even though we don't always see "eye to eye" on certain matters {yes, I still remember the "You are not of service" comment} I have great respect for you as a martial artist and a kenpoist {even if you did coin the term "motion Kenpo" YUCK!} LOL!
Thanks for the compliment my kenpo bro!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE
Immortal Man Pointing the Way was how I originally learned them. We also used them in "Poison Hand Set" before there was a Finger Set #1.
-Michael
-Michael
Atlanta-Kenpo
Blue Belt
If you will look at the entire form you will see most everything is done in a series of 3. It starts with the slicing chop, 4 finger poke and spear hand and continues through out the rest of the form. I asked Lee Wedlake about this about a year ago and I believe that he told me; That if you do a poke with the right hand and then the left hand you need to get back to the starting position so the easies way to do that is by doing another poke. So the reason for doing everything in a series of three is to do the motion on both sides and the a third is in there to get back to the position you started from.
Hey, it makes sense to me
By the way that series is the only offensive move found in any EPAK form.
That will will EPAK trivia for $400.00 Alex
%-}
Hey, it makes sense to me
By the way that series is the only offensive move found in any EPAK form.
That will will EPAK trivia for $400.00 Alex
%-}
Kenpojujitsu3
Master Black Belt
And here I thought the outward elbow-upward block-reverse punch sequence in long one started with an offensive manuever too. Let alone the double punches from destructive twins (#3 Forms) that precede any blocking action therefore making them offensive in nature. And there are several others that have no block but start with an attack as well. Silly me I must be mistaken though.Atlanta-Kenpo said:If you will look at the entire form you will see most everything is done in a series of 3. It starts with the slicing chop, 4 finger poke and spear hand and continues through out the rest of the form. I asked Lee Wedlake about this about a year ago and I believe that he told me; That if you do a poke with the right hand and then the left hand you need to get back to the starting position so the easies way to do that is by doing another poke. So the reason for doing everything in a series of three is to do the motion on both sides and the a third is in there to get back to the position you started from.
Hey, it makes sense to me
By the way that series is the only offensive move found in any EPAK form.
That will will EPAK trivia for $400.00 Alex
Yours in Kenpo,
James
P.S. Remember it's all in your point of view. Especially the 1 and 2 forms that don't have set "techniques" but instead define basic concepts of motion. Some will tell you that the push down sequence to 1:30 in Long 2 is offensive too by striking the stomach, some will say you're blocking a knee. Both are correct applications. Food for thought if your mind is like a parachute (read: only works when open).
Atlanta-Kenpo
Blue Belt
Normaly when I put a post up and I get a silly reply I simply ignore it however this time I can't refuse. Your just to cocky for your own good.
Ok, I understand you zealousness but your not thinking this through my kenpo friend. I can clear this up very quickly for you and all you have to do is read Lee Wedlake's kenpo katare 201 which explains in detail the basic and exercise forms. You will find in there that he says that the above mentioned moves in long 2 IS THE ONLY OFFENSIVE MOVES IN ANY KENPO FORM. Now, if you are smarter and understang EPAKK more then a 1st generation senior then I am sure that you could give him a shout out and explain to him that he is wrong and YOU are correct.
"And here I thought the outward elbow-upward block-reverse punch sequence in long one started with an offensive manuever too."
Not an offensive move here my friend: The outward elbow if the 1st example of a reverse motion and the upward elbow & punch is just the next block in that secequence (inward, outward, upward & downward).
"Let alone the double punches from destructive twins (#3 Forms) that precede any blocking action therefore making them offensive in nature."
How can this not be defensive? You are already being choked? Man if someone grabed me like that I sure would have to do something to DEFEND myself.
"And there are several others that have no block but start with an attack as well. Silly me I must be mistaken though."
By all mean point them out to me and I will give you my explaination as taught to me by Lee Wedlake.
By the way: A offensive move would be a move that was not in RESPONSE TO AN ATTACK!
HOW SILLY DO WE FEEL NOW?
Don't sweat it. We all have our opinions and we are intitled to them.
I hope you have a great day.
By the way. I was born and raised in Baltimore. Man do I miss crabs, downtown and the Orioles. if you ever come to atlanta give me a shout out.
:mp5:
Ok, I understand you zealousness but your not thinking this through my kenpo friend. I can clear this up very quickly for you and all you have to do is read Lee Wedlake's kenpo katare 201 which explains in detail the basic and exercise forms. You will find in there that he says that the above mentioned moves in long 2 IS THE ONLY OFFENSIVE MOVES IN ANY KENPO FORM. Now, if you are smarter and understang EPAKK more then a 1st generation senior then I am sure that you could give him a shout out and explain to him that he is wrong and YOU are correct.
"And here I thought the outward elbow-upward block-reverse punch sequence in long one started with an offensive manuever too."
Not an offensive move here my friend: The outward elbow if the 1st example of a reverse motion and the upward elbow & punch is just the next block in that secequence (inward, outward, upward & downward).
"Let alone the double punches from destructive twins (#3 Forms) that precede any blocking action therefore making them offensive in nature."
How can this not be defensive? You are already being choked? Man if someone grabed me like that I sure would have to do something to DEFEND myself.
"And there are several others that have no block but start with an attack as well. Silly me I must be mistaken though."
By all mean point them out to me and I will give you my explaination as taught to me by Lee Wedlake.
By the way: A offensive move would be a move that was not in RESPONSE TO AN ATTACK!
HOW SILLY DO WE FEEL NOW?
Don't sweat it. We all have our opinions and we are intitled to them.
I hope you have a great day.
By the way. I was born and raised in Baltimore. Man do I miss crabs, downtown and the Orioles. if you ever come to atlanta give me a shout out.
:mp5:
Kenpojujitsu3
Master Black Belt
LOL. Everything you stated about the Kenpo System and Mr. Wedlake's book I'm fully aware of. You missed the part about point of view. In Mr. Wedlake's point of view it's the only offensive sequence. I have training with other 1st gens. who think otherwise but I tend not back my points with "Im right because (Insert Parker Black Belt name here) said so" so I'll leave the names out of it. I'll use logic instead. That's why I said an OPEN mind. I was taught things the way you described them years ago. But I was also taught to look for new viewponts and applications after the "ideal application" was understood. Just as the techniques have 3 phases so do the forms and sets. Example: The long 2 series you mentioned is indeed offensive in it's "ideal application". But that motion sequence is also applied in Ju Jitsu as a defensive maneuver on an opponents arm. So no I don't feel silly at all and I'm not being cocky. I'm just doing what I was taught to do in Kenpo. Think for myself and not be stuck on what SOMEONE ELSE SAID IS TRUE. If we all thought like that Mr. Parker would have never looked for other applications of what he was taught by Mr. Chow and American Kenpo as we know it would never have been born. Also reallize I have extensive experience in other arts (and you might too) and the motion sequences you see in American Kenpo are used differently in the other arts I've studied. A great many of the "defenses" you know are actually used offensively in other systems and can be used offensively in ours. For example Short From 1 would be an offensive "Throwing Form" if done in the Ju Jitsu I practice. All the movements are throws with slightly altered foot work alone. Like I said an OPEN MIND. The forms, like all things kenpo, are much deeper than the "Ideal application" taught to most. Another example: What's the difference between the three eye slices in Form 4 (Circling windmills offensive movement) and Snaking Talons opening movements (defensive arm trap-parries). Just a minor angle adjustment and the application in mind. They are actually the same motion applied offensively here and defensively there. Final example: What's the difference between a downward block and an armbar takedown? Where the opponent's arm is in reference to your arms. So like I said whether a move is offensive or defensive is all point of view based. Unless the ideal phase is all there is to you in your training which I hope is not the case. Just keep an OPEN MIND. The problem is I AM THINKING this through. I'm THINKING PASSED what I was initially taught to find more answers and you have to do that if you want to understand this "motion kenpo". Think about it "my kenpo friend."Atlanta-Kenpo said:Normaly when I put a post up and I get a silly reply I simply ignore it however this time I can't refuse. Your just to cocky for your own good.
Ok, I understand you zealousness but your not thinking this through my kenpo friend. I can clear this up very quickly for you and all you have to do is read Lee Wedlake's kenpo katare 201 which explains in detail the basic and exercise forms. You will find in there that he says that the above mentioned moves in long 2 IS THE ONLY OFFENSIVE MOVES IN ANY KENPO FORM. Now, if you are smarter and understang EPAKK more then a 1st generation senior then I am sure that you could give him a shout out and explain to him that he is wrong and YOU are correct.
"And here I thought the outward elbow-upward block-reverse punch sequence in long one started with an offensive manuever too."
Not an offensive move here my friend: The outward elbow if the 1st example of a reverse motion and the upward elbow & punch is just the next block in that secequence (inward, outward, upward & downward).
"Let alone the double punches from destructive twins (#3 Forms) that precede any blocking action therefore making them offensive in nature."
How can this not be defensive? You are already being choked? Man if someone grabed me like that I sure would have to do something to DEFEND myself.
"And there are several others that have no block but start with an attack as well. Silly me I must be mistaken though."
By all mean point them out to me and I will give you my explaination as taught to me by Lee Wedlake.
By the way: A offensive move would be a move that was not in RESPONSE TO AN ATTACK!
HOW SILLY DO WE FEEL NOW?
Don't sweat it. We all have our opinions and we are intitled to them.
I hope you have a great day.
By the way. I was born and raised in Baltimore. Man do I miss crabs, downtown and the Orioles. if you ever come to atlanta give me a shout out.
Respectfully,
James
"Knowledge is power"
"power without PERCEPTION is virtually useless and therefore of no true value"
So how do you PERCEIVE those motion sequences again. And I don't mean what your instructor taught you as he'll tell you he just lays a base. How do YOU PERCEIVE those motion sequences again?
Good luck on your Martial Journey.
I concur here with James' post. We can look at the IDEAL phase of any form, whether they are the epression of basics, or the techniques. I have heard so many different applications and explanations that it literally would sound silly for me to list them all, both from 1st Gen Mr. Parker Black Belts, or from who I consider the true original "Seniors" in the art.
Perspective is everything, but something is to be said for learning the IDEAL. Whether it is Lee Wedlake, Huk Palanas, Tom Kelly Sr., or Mr. Parker himself, the interpretation of the IDEAL sometimes varies. Not only between them, but sometimes between one lesson then a review a year later, the explanation of the ideal changed. The motion itself remains consistant, but I have heard it myself, whether stressing the timing breaks in the pokes with one - one-two, focusing on double factors throghout the form, or possible indexing and catagory completion (not my thing at all, but I am familiar with it).
Sarcasm does not belong here by the by. You can always disagree, but watch the back and forth sneering almost, replies.
-Michael
Perspective is everything, but something is to be said for learning the IDEAL. Whether it is Lee Wedlake, Huk Palanas, Tom Kelly Sr., or Mr. Parker himself, the interpretation of the IDEAL sometimes varies. Not only between them, but sometimes between one lesson then a review a year later, the explanation of the ideal changed. The motion itself remains consistant, but I have heard it myself, whether stressing the timing breaks in the pokes with one - one-two, focusing on double factors throghout the form, or possible indexing and catagory completion (not my thing at all, but I am familiar with it).
Sarcasm does not belong here by the by. You can always disagree, but watch the back and forth sneering almost, replies.
-Michael
Kenpojujitsu3
Master Black Belt
My apologies for the jeering and sarcasm. It was all in fun on my part but I could have stopped with proving my point. Osu. :asian:Michael Billings said:
Doc
Senior Master
In the hopes of not sounding too cocky, I suggest you recognize the many interpretations of Mr. Parker's products as taught by him to various sources that may differ. EPAK even as you know it is not this single monolithic body of work cast in stone that never changed physically or philosophically. Mr. Parker grew, did things, grew some more and changed things everyday. Definitive statements of that type are ripe for arguments. For the record, I disagree with you as well.Atlanta-Kenpo said:
kenpoworks
Purple Belt
HEY! , HEY! Doc,Doc said:
your'e back,..............and it seems to be buisness as usual!, loved the above, keep it going "me old china"
Richy
