Liu He Ba Fa
- Thread starter Xue Sheng
- Start date
Was the main difference just the foot turning, or is there more? I also realise that my back leg straightens a lot, which is technically incorrect as far as LHBF is concerned which makes it look as if it goes "too high".
OP
OP
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
For the most part it was the foot turning that from a Tai Chi perspective appears to not be rooted, but I see thinks in Xingyi that I know are very effective that form a Tai Chi perspective may appear double weighted and that is not really the case. Let me take another look at the video.
And speaking of Tai Chi I must go train, I am woefully behind on my days training.
http://www.tcmartist.com/drakesansone/
Well, I put this off long enough, but I'll have to continue to put off on the promise of the video I said I'd do. To tie you all over for the moment, I give you a directory chock full of Choi Wai Lun and LHBF related videos. They are not mine, except for one which the owner downloaded of my LHBF video (he renamed it "sloppylhbf" laugh out loud).
A combination of factors continue to prevent me from making those videos I promised to do. First, it was the heat. 40 degrees celsius is not a good temperature to perform strenuous exercise. In combination with that, I had on/off access for a camera, which Murphily alternated with the cycles of 40 degree heat that hit Perth over our summer. Now, I have a full time university commitment which chews up a lot of time, which will continue on to the end of the year. I might be able to squeeze them in, depending on how much I feel like doing the university stuff...
So I provide you with someone else's LHBF material for the time being.
The website has a couple of Choi Wai Lun doing the second half of the LHBF form, which you've all seen on the Youtube ones. Nothing special. But there are others which feature the 12 LHBF Animals. Personally, I really prefer the one called "Tiger". That video is a 700MB download (one video file including Goose, Crane and Eagle as well). There are a lot of big video files there. Don't abuse it, or we might lose the only video resource of LHBF.
It's really too bad that Choi Wai Lun did not do a video of "Coiled Dragon Swimming" or "Dragon Tiger Battle" before his retirement, so those are as good as lost. But then, my teacher's teacher said that those two forms doesn't contain anything that isn't in the two/three main LHBF forms. I plan to do one of the "Coiled Dragon Fist". I already posted a video of that collaborative project on the Videos thread (it's the one which was computer generated).
It's too bad no one else has the X the preserve their own LHBF stuff on the internet (in full).
Well, I put this off long enough, but I'll have to continue to put off on the promise of the video I said I'd do. To tie you all over for the moment, I give you a directory chock full of Choi Wai Lun and LHBF related videos. They are not mine, except for one which the owner downloaded of my LHBF video (he renamed it "sloppylhbf" laugh out loud).
A combination of factors continue to prevent me from making those videos I promised to do. First, it was the heat. 40 degrees celsius is not a good temperature to perform strenuous exercise. In combination with that, I had on/off access for a camera, which Murphily alternated with the cycles of 40 degree heat that hit Perth over our summer. Now, I have a full time university commitment which chews up a lot of time, which will continue on to the end of the year. I might be able to squeeze them in, depending on how much I feel like doing the university stuff...
So I provide you with someone else's LHBF material for the time being.
The website has a couple of Choi Wai Lun doing the second half of the LHBF form, which you've all seen on the Youtube ones. Nothing special. But there are others which feature the 12 LHBF Animals. Personally, I really prefer the one called "Tiger". That video is a 700MB download (one video file including Goose, Crane and Eagle as well). There are a lot of big video files there. Don't abuse it, or we might lose the only video resource of LHBF.
It's really too bad that Choi Wai Lun did not do a video of "Coiled Dragon Swimming" or "Dragon Tiger Battle" before his retirement, so those are as good as lost. But then, my teacher's teacher said that those two forms doesn't contain anything that isn't in the two/three main LHBF forms. I plan to do one of the "Coiled Dragon Fist". I already posted a video of that collaborative project on the Videos thread (it's the one which was computer generated).
It's too bad no one else has the X the preserve their own LHBF stuff on the internet (in full).
Yes, it's supposed to be a server directory. There's only LHBF related stuff in there, so don't worry about finding anything "else".
You should see three folders. One of them is completely dedicated to Choi Wai Lun's videos. Another is a collection of LHBF snippets from around the web. The owner decided to, to put it lightly, "rename" many videos to show what he think's of the LHBF in the videos or alternately a "description" of the person. Mine was renamed to "sloppylbhf" and unfortunately is the only video of a complete main form anywhere on the web.
There's also the "Five Character Secrets" or "Five Word Song" of LHBF in Chinese and english, but the english translation is very very poor. I've been trying to get it translated, with one aborted attempt.
Drake Sansone (the owner of the archive) appears to be one of Choi Wai Lun's former students. He's very zealous. You may have read his posts in many other forums relating to what he thinks of anyone who didn't learn from Choi Wai Lun himself. He also goes by the nick of "Swmng Dragon" or something similar. He has a few posts at EmptyFlower as well. He hasn't appeared to be very active for a long while now.
You should see three folders. One of them is completely dedicated to Choi Wai Lun's videos. Another is a collection of LHBF snippets from around the web. The owner decided to, to put it lightly, "rename" many videos to show what he think's of the LHBF in the videos or alternately a "description" of the person. Mine was renamed to "sloppylbhf" and unfortunately is the only video of a complete main form anywhere on the web.
There's also the "Five Character Secrets" or "Five Word Song" of LHBF in Chinese and english, but the english translation is very very poor. I've been trying to get it translated, with one aborted attempt.
Drake Sansone (the owner of the archive) appears to be one of Choi Wai Lun's former students. He's very zealous. You may have read his posts in many other forums relating to what he thinks of anyone who didn't learn from Choi Wai Lun himself. He also goes by the nick of "Swmng Dragon" or something similar. He has a few posts at EmptyFlower as well. He hasn't appeared to be very active for a long while now.
qi-tah
Brown Belt
sorry to bring cricket into it again, but i guess it depends on which way you are swinging (so to speak)... pretty much all batsmen will have some backswing *as* they are stepping, unless they are playing backfoot defence, where the lift needed is minimal, or they are master punchers of the ball like Ricky Ponting
I mean, the backlift will also contribute to the total kinetic energy imparted to the ball, no? And players do stand and deliver as well, the reason for stepping is to get your body into the hitting zone, depending on where the ball is bowled.Sorry about putting my 2 cents in if this is completely off topic now.
qi-tah
Brown Belt
oh, and this is not Liu he ba fa, but some other Liu he styles previously mentioned... i think there are some clips on this site somewhere too. On a different tack, would be interested to know what ppl think of Zi ran men as an internal-like style?
www.ziranmen.com/main/main.php
Again, apols if off topic
www.ziranmen.com/main/main.php
Again, apols if off topic
sorry to bring cricket into it again, but i guess it depends on which way you are swinging (so to speak)... pretty much all batsmen will have some backswing *as* they are stepping, unless they are playing backfoot defence, where the lift needed is minimal, or they are master punchers of the ball like Ricky Ponting
Sorry about putting my 2 cents in if this is completely off topic now.
Your analysis is completely correct.
I brought up cricket and baseball as examples because, if I remember the conversation correctly, someone a claim made that the Xingyi-like step-and-strike in an almost simultaneous action was wrong citing some reason about power generation or whatnot. I was showing, using real world examples, how it is very possible to generate power in that fashion (only because I felt the comparison to Xingyi was ignored or dismissed).
From the Liu He Ba Fa point of view, that kind of power generation is more powerful and more efficient than any other method.
But you are very correct that legends like Ricky Ponting (and Matthew Hayden, Justin Langer, Adam Gilchrist, ...) can also punch the ball in a stand-and-deliver action.
And that is not incompatible with Liu He Ba Fa either. Liu He Ba Fa contains a very logical mix of both kinds of footwork. Sometimes, both kinds of footwork are present in the same movement. That is what that "foot turning" thing a few hundred or so posts ago is about. When we practice, we turn our back foot on the toe (but the whole foot is still in contact with the ground). When it's actually used, it is up to the situation for the person to move in what way is required. In close quarters, where it is not always possible to step forward and deliver, it is still possible to turn the back foot (either going from a bow/arrow stance or a 4/6 stance). By doing that, you can still generate good power while at the same time just standing and delivering. Even then, there's no requirement in Liu He Ba Fa that foot turning or stepping must be present when applying an action for real.
There is simply no universal principle that favours either kind of footwork absolutely. You see people like Andrew Strauss who has been dismissed during the Ashes both for having no foot movement (against the quicks) and sometimes too much foot movement (against Shane Warne). It's not really an issue about different types of footwork. It becomes an issue about being able to make the right choice without hesitation in less than a second. Liu He Ba Fa has the best of both worlds, but you would also get the same from doing both Taiji and Xingyi. In my experience learning and teaching Liu He Ba Fa, a lot of effort is used in explaining, for a certain action, what situations require foot movement, which don't and which is better served by the hybrid.
And no, I do not think you are off topic. "Liu He Ba Fa" as a thread topic is itself very vague. It makes for a better discussion and learning experience to relate to things outside expected boundaries, like discussing cricket. Talking about history or why one kind of movement is better than another using vaguely worded principles from dead people instead of real world examples (in other domains) means nothing new is being explored and would be better off not being discussed at all.
qi-tah
Brown Belt
Interesting. I did read some of the posts on this topic earlier but i'm not sure that i know enough about Xing Yi (and i *know* that i don't know enough about Liu he ba fa!) to really grasp the nuances of it all. But the twisting on the back foot you describe sounds a little like what i've always called "screwing" the toes - whether to provide a stable launch pad for an explosive movement from the waist or as a side-effect of said explosive movement i've never been able to work out!
It's feels like a more concentrated version of the foot movement in a classic boxing uppercut anyway. And all the Xing Yi stuff i've done has been hands and feet moving together, not as a sequence. But as i said, i haven't done that much. Utterly agree about using real-world examples to find new ways to illustrate ideas in MA. Sometimes the ways in which unexpected comparisons don't work can be as thought-provoking as the ways in which they do.
OP
OP
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Interesting. I did read some of the posts on this topic earlier but i'm not sure that i know enough about Xing Yi (and i *know* that i don't know enough about Liu he ba fa!) to really grasp the nuances of it all. But the twisting on the back foot you describe sounds a little like what i've always called "screwing" the toes - whether to provide a stable launch pad for an explosive movement from the waist or as a side-effect of said explosive movement i've never been able to work out!
Utterly agree about using real-world examples to find new ways to illustrate ideas in MA. Sometimes the ways in which unexpected comparisons don't work can be as thought-provoking as the ways in which they do.
You have pretty much got the idea of Xingyi.
Everything works together. The back foot land at the same time the strike is made, the entire body works in unison. Xingyi is also a back stance where in general Taiji is not, except in a couple of postures. Xingyi uses attack as defense where Taiji and I believe Liu He Ba Fa do not. I do not see the similarities between Xingyi and Liu He Ba Fa but then I do not train Liu He Ba Fa so I really cannot compare them except in video.
Depends on who you learn it from or what videos you watch.
I have been taught both ways.
Liu He Ba Fa is not as circular as Taiji is (tt shouldn't be; at least it shouldn't look circular due to it all being internalised). It even uses a lot of the Xingyi handwork where the arm is like a wedge that splits the opponent up while being able to launch a direct attack at the same time (with the same hand).
If someone decides to take the "full course", they should be learning the defence aspect and the attack aspect using the same postures such that there doesn't need to be a change in action, thus it becomes using attack as defence and vice versa.
qi-tah:
whether to provide a stable launch pad for an explosive movement from the waist or as a side-effect of said explosive movement i've never been able to work out!
Theoretically, the foot turning should never be the side effect of said explosive movement. Practically, some of us (me) don't practice as hard as we should. If it is a side effect, then you would lose all your balance in realtime speed.
When looking at the slow form, you would see that the foot turning is at a constant rate as a strike is being delivered.
That's just how you should train.
In actual application, the foot only turns near the end of a strike. At the end, the turning foot (back foot, but sometimes both) grabs the ground hard and the body sinks such that the friction should stop the foot turning past 30 degrees from forward. It helps as a launchpad for explosive waste movement, as you correctly say, but also as a finisher.
If you then analyse the force profile rather than how it looks on the outside, you would see that it is no more different than stepping.
I swear I really am going to post that video once and for all showing the foot turning.
OP
OP
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Point taken and it may also depend on the style of Xingyi you are talking about, I do Hebei style but there are other styles to consider and I have seen Shanxi style but I do not believe I have ever seen Hunan style and I am told it is rather different. Also I recently saw a style (sorry the name escapes me) of Xingyi that actually used more of a front stance.
The attack-as-defence part of some Xingyi I've seen that stuck out the most is Pichuan if I remember correctly.
After seeing a few apps videos of Pichuan, I had a good time recognising them in the Liu He Ba Fa forms. If you look at a video of the beginning of the main form, you can see a Pichuan-like attack at the first rightwards torso-waist turn. It's a good example because it's also a "defensive" action at the same time like Pichuan is.
I've counted 13 Pichuan-like attacks in the first half of the main form, 7 in the second half and 1 in the Coiled Dragon form, which is odd because the Coiled Dragon form is the most Xingyi like of the style. However, the Coiled Dragon form is completely attack-as-defence but unfortunately no one seems to want to show it on the internet or the even rarer forms.
I do Hsing Yi, Bagua and Taichi and yes do believe that the form of Water Boxing out there now is very influenced by Hsing Yi, Bagua, Taichi.
This said yes i learned some of the Liu Ba Fa forms an can say man that it was just to much an i had to tell my instructor that to after so long cause here i had twelve years in the other three systems an it just seemed like there was to many forms at that point. Though the forms are not that much in movement i just was at the time had to much on my plate. They do start looking more like animal forms than the hsing yi animal form look to me. The snake movements are very much snake in Liu Ba Fa from what i can remember.
This said yes i learned some of the Liu Ba Fa forms an can say man that it was just to much an i had to tell my instructor that to after so long cause here i had twelve years in the other three systems an it just seemed like there was to many forms at that point. Though the forms are not that much in movement i just was at the time had to much on my plate. They do start looking more like animal forms than the hsing yi animal form look to me. The snake movements are very much snake in Liu Ba Fa from what i can remember.
Well, this has been sitting on my computer for a long time. I was bored one time and decided to transcribe my teacher's copy of the LHBF 5 word song. I guess I'm putting here to share and maybe get some people interested in translating it "for the good of martial arts" or something like that. I found a translation by John Chung Li. It was terrible.
Of course, you browser should support unicode fonts. My computer as Arial Unicode MS and only one or two words have a slightly less correct form.
This was taken straight from Chan Yik Yan's own book on Liu He Ba Fa. Scans of some parts of the book (the song, the liu he and the ba fa and the photos of Chan Yik Yan's postuers) are available from www.waterboxing.com . I have seen other copies of the five word song which for some reason have a few extra verses at the end. And even for additions they were translated really poorly.
拳 學 五 字 訣
心 意 本 無 法
包 羅 小 天 地
要 學 心 意 功
無 象 亦 無 意
視 不 能 如 能
乘 勢 擊 與 顧
步 步 占 先 機
剛 柔 互 參 就
虛 靈 含 有 物
原 來 自 我 始
兩 腿 似 弓 彎
彷 彿 臨 大 敵
形 動 如 浴 水
有 法 是 虛 無
釋 家 為 圓 覺
先 從 八 法 起
收 放 勿 露 形
生 疏 莫 臨 敵
剛 在 他 力 前
時 時 要 留 意
調 息 坎 離 交
窈 窈 溟 溟 趣
雙 單 可 分 明
伸 縮 腰 著 力
目 光 如 流 電
若 履 雲 霧 霽
虛 無 得 自 然
道 家 說 無 為
養 我 浩 然 氣
鬆 緊 要 自 主
動 時 把 得 固
柔 乘 他 力 後
蓄 力 如 弓 圓
上 下 中 和 氣
忽 隱 又 忽 現
陰 陽 見 虛 實
臂 脊 須 圓 抱
精 神 顧 四 隅
飄 飄 乎 欲 仙
無 法 不 容 恕
有 象 求 無 象
遍 身 皆 彈 力
策 應 宜 守 默
一 發 未 深 入
彼 忙 我 靜 待
發 勁 似 箭 直
守 默 如 卧 禪
息 息 任 自 然
虛 引 敵 落 空
内 外 混 元 氣
前 四 後 佔 六
浩 浩 乎 清 虛
放 之 彌 六 合
不 期 自 然 至
見 首 不 見 尾
不 偏 亦 不 倚
審 機 得 其 勢
攻 守 任 君 鬥
悟 透 陰 陽 理
動 似 蟄 龍 起
避 免 敵 重 力
欲 收 放 更 急
息 念 要 集 神
掌 握 三 與 七
意 動 似 懼 虎
氣 靜 如 處 子
顯 隱 無 與 有
道 理 極 微 細
元 根 築 基 法
世 間 無 難 事
神 意 要 集 中
欲 緊 未 著 力
見 形 尋 破 綻
處 處 無 乘 隙
法 術 二 而 一
形 似 游 龍 戲
舒 筋 活 血 脈
水 火 得 相 見
奇 正 得 相 生
犯 者 敵 即 仆
凝 神 尋 真 諦
欲 動 似 非 動
蘊 藏 皆 珠 玉
欲 學 果 有 誠
推 動 轉 輪 器
運 使 求 均 衡
絲 毫 不 相 讓
呼 吸 細 綿 綿
缺 一 不 能 立
縱 橫 與 起 伏
榮 衛 得 適 宜
精 研 内 外 功
動 靜 隨 心 欲
五 總 九 節 力
妙 法 有 和 合
靜 中 還 有 意
說 難 亦 非 難
久 恒 與 智 慧
一 觸 力 即 發
螺 旋 循 環 氣
腕 肘 肩 胯 膝
升 降 緩 而 急
兩 手 輕 輕 起
陰 陽 運 行 數
一 吸 氣 便 提
心 虛 腹 要 實
麤 成 五 字 訣
欲 學 持 有 恒
離 塵 空 虛 寂
息 念 氣 自 平
看 易 本 非 易
華 嶽 希 夷 門
使 敵 難 迴 避
逢 敵 莫 惶 張
足 踏 手 脚 齊
得 法 可 應 變
曲 伸 無 斷 續
意 動 氣 相 隨
氣 氣 可 歸 臍
率 然 取 其 勢
後 學 莫 輕 視
升 堂 可 入 室
拳 拳 得 服 膺
默 默 守 太 虛
有 志 事 竟 成
力 行 最 為 貴
欲 鬆 似 非 鬆
開 闔 收 與 放
節 節 力 貫 串
有 術 方 為 奇
轉 移 有 曲 折
關 節 含 蓄 力
一 提 氣 便 咽
首 尾 不 相 離
Of course, you browser should support unicode fonts. My computer as Arial Unicode MS and only one or two words have a slightly less correct form.
This was taken straight from Chan Yik Yan's own book on Liu He Ba Fa. Scans of some parts of the book (the song, the liu he and the ba fa and the photos of Chan Yik Yan's postuers) are available from www.waterboxing.com . I have seen other copies of the five word song which for some reason have a few extra verses at the end. And even for additions they were translated really poorly.
拳 學 五 字 訣
心 意 本 無 法
包 羅 小 天 地
要 學 心 意 功
無 象 亦 無 意
視 不 能 如 能
乘 勢 擊 與 顧
步 步 占 先 機
剛 柔 互 參 就
虛 靈 含 有 物
原 來 自 我 始
兩 腿 似 弓 彎
彷 彿 臨 大 敵
形 動 如 浴 水
有 法 是 虛 無
釋 家 為 圓 覺
先 從 八 法 起
收 放 勿 露 形
生 疏 莫 臨 敵
剛 在 他 力 前
時 時 要 留 意
調 息 坎 離 交
窈 窈 溟 溟 趣
雙 單 可 分 明
伸 縮 腰 著 力
目 光 如 流 電
若 履 雲 霧 霽
虛 無 得 自 然
道 家 說 無 為
養 我 浩 然 氣
鬆 緊 要 自 主
動 時 把 得 固
柔 乘 他 力 後
蓄 力 如 弓 圓
上 下 中 和 氣
忽 隱 又 忽 現
陰 陽 見 虛 實
臂 脊 須 圓 抱
精 神 顧 四 隅
飄 飄 乎 欲 仙
無 法 不 容 恕
有 象 求 無 象
遍 身 皆 彈 力
策 應 宜 守 默
一 發 未 深 入
彼 忙 我 靜 待
發 勁 似 箭 直
守 默 如 卧 禪
息 息 任 自 然
虛 引 敵 落 空
内 外 混 元 氣
前 四 後 佔 六
浩 浩 乎 清 虛
放 之 彌 六 合
不 期 自 然 至
見 首 不 見 尾
不 偏 亦 不 倚
審 機 得 其 勢
攻 守 任 君 鬥
悟 透 陰 陽 理
動 似 蟄 龍 起
避 免 敵 重 力
欲 收 放 更 急
息 念 要 集 神
掌 握 三 與 七
意 動 似 懼 虎
氣 靜 如 處 子
顯 隱 無 與 有
道 理 極 微 細
元 根 築 基 法
世 間 無 難 事
神 意 要 集 中
欲 緊 未 著 力
見 形 尋 破 綻
處 處 無 乘 隙
法 術 二 而 一
形 似 游 龍 戲
舒 筋 活 血 脈
水 火 得 相 見
奇 正 得 相 生
犯 者 敵 即 仆
凝 神 尋 真 諦
欲 動 似 非 動
蘊 藏 皆 珠 玉
欲 學 果 有 誠
推 動 轉 輪 器
運 使 求 均 衡
絲 毫 不 相 讓
呼 吸 細 綿 綿
缺 一 不 能 立
縱 橫 與 起 伏
榮 衛 得 適 宜
精 研 内 外 功
動 靜 隨 心 欲
五 總 九 節 力
妙 法 有 和 合
靜 中 還 有 意
說 難 亦 非 難
久 恒 與 智 慧
一 觸 力 即 發
螺 旋 循 環 氣
腕 肘 肩 胯 膝
升 降 緩 而 急
兩 手 輕 輕 起
陰 陽 運 行 數
一 吸 氣 便 提
心 虛 腹 要 實
麤 成 五 字 訣
欲 學 持 有 恒
離 塵 空 虛 寂
息 念 氣 自 平
看 易 本 非 易
華 嶽 希 夷 門
使 敵 難 迴 避
逢 敵 莫 惶 張
足 踏 手 脚 齊
得 法 可 應 變
曲 伸 無 斷 續
意 動 氣 相 隨
氣 氣 可 歸 臍
率 然 取 其 勢
後 學 莫 輕 視
升 堂 可 入 室
拳 拳 得 服 膺
默 默 守 太 虛
有 志 事 竟 成
力 行 最 為 貴
欲 鬆 似 非 鬆
開 闔 收 與 放
節 節 力 貫 串
有 術 方 為 奇
轉 移 有 曲 折
關 節 含 蓄 力
一 提 氣 便 咽
首 尾 不 相 離
arashikage1
White Belt
I have respect for all my brothers and sisters in Liu He Ba Fa and the many different lineage's but I am loyal to one and only to that one. That one is Great Grand Master Chan Yik Yan / Grand Master Wai Lun Choi lineage of Liu He Ba Fa. It is the bomb, the bottom line, end of story. When I think of water boxing, when i think of the Way of the Coiled Dragon, there is only but one method, one way that comes to mind and that way is Liu He Ba Fa as it is taught by Great Grand Master Chan Yik Yan and handed down to Grand Master Wai Lun Choi and as it was handed down to me from my Sifu who was a student of Master Choi in Chicago back in 1972. The (Zhú Jī ??) the Six Harmonies Fist form is the hardest, longest form i have ever learned in the 40 years i have been in the martial arts and it kicked my *** when i first started to learn it. hell, it still kicks my *** even today. Every time i go through the form i learn something new about it.
