frank raud
Master of Arts
Although he is much better known for training and teaching with guns. Jeff Bloovman is a lifelong martial artist.
LGBT artists
- Thread starter WingChunChick
- Start date
"Sex life" doesn't have any business in a martial arts school, sure, but "family" is a different matter. If, say, it's "parents train free month" and one kid brings his two moms, that's not in any way discussing sex life, but it is inherently disclosing the orientation of the parents. Or it can be as simple as listing a domestic partner as your emergency contact in case of injury. Nobody says I'm talking about my sex life when I list my wife as my emergency contact in the school's records, even though it inherently identifies my sexual orientation. Why would two men be any different?
It has an impact in that you're disclosing it to the business owner, which may or may not be one of the instructors, but it doesn't have any impact on any other member of the dojo. And its not effecting your martial ability in any way.
I have heard a guy say he wouldn't work with a gay man because of his sexual orientation, but that same guy had a habit of pairing up with woman. I pointed this out, and he just pretended not to hear.
I know it doesn't affect their martial ability in any way. I'm defending their right to be "out" without being accused of either "flaunting" or "discussing sex lives."
A guy used to come into my gym and buy heavy bags from time to time. His name escapes right now. He was a Martial Artist from South Boston. One time he ordered five bags and brought some folks with him to pick them up. They were so nervous in the gym I thought it odd. Then I realized there were a bunch of cops training off to the side. It was an aha moment. They were minor minions of Whitey Bulger.
The original guy ended up ratting out some of the mob, went on Sixty Minutes, and eventually, years later, landed in jail for big time stealing from churches. He wrote a book which I read - forget the name of that, too.
But in the book he describes how he and his crew used to go down to the Charles River in Boston and Cambridge, which is a really nice area, and "beat up fags" for sport. He goes on to describe how after many of these incidents, him and four other guys went after four gay men who were down there. He goes on to describe that the gay men were all martial artists, really good martial artists, who beat the attackers to within an inch of their lives. Said it was the worst beating any of them ever got, and they had to be hospitalized.
It always makes me smile when I think of that.
edit - I remembered the name. Edward MacKenzie
The original guy ended up ratting out some of the mob, went on Sixty Minutes, and eventually, years later, landed in jail for big time stealing from churches. He wrote a book which I read - forget the name of that, too.
But in the book he describes how he and his crew used to go down to the Charles River in Boston and Cambridge, which is a really nice area, and "beat up fags" for sport. He goes on to describe how after many of these incidents, him and four other guys went after four gay men who were down there. He goes on to describe that the gay men were all martial artists, really good martial artists, who beat the attackers to within an inch of their lives. Said it was the worst beating any of them ever got, and they had to be hospitalized.
It always makes me smile when I think of that.
edit - I remembered the name. Edward MacKenzie
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Gotcha. Misunderstood your statements.
What's it matter?
I mean, if I was single and looking to date another martial artist, it would matter -- but only so far as avoiding putting someone in a position of having to turn me down. As far as training... I train people. Some happen to be male, some female. There are some relatively minor differences in how I work with people, but those are based on physiology, not sexual orientation. It doesn't make any more difference than their political positions.
I mean, if I was single and looking to date another martial artist, it would matter -- but only so far as avoiding putting someone in a position of having to turn me down. As far as training... I train people. Some happen to be male, some female. There are some relatively minor differences in how I work with people, but those are based on physiology, not sexual orientation. It doesn't make any more difference than their political positions.
dvcochran
Grandmaster
I believe that is the best way I have ever heard it explained.
Yokozuna514
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So what difference does it make if a kid has two moms or two dads instead of one of each as it pertains to MA ? What does their sex life or sexual orientation have to do with being an emergency contact?
JR 137
Grandmaster
For a “normal” person (one that doesn’t think any of this matters, such as you and I), nothing. For someone who looks down on it and would treat the person differently because of it, it means a lot. For the person who has been mistreated in the past because of who they go home to, it can become a stressful situation for them. Why people get stupid about finding out someone’s homosexual is another conversation; the issue is people don’t want to deal with people being stupid about it. And people can get very stupid about it.
I teach at a private elementary school. There’s a girl in 2nd grade with 2 fathers. One of them works part time to take care of her and spends a good amount of time in the school - helping out in and out of the classroom. He’s a nice guy, is nice to all the kids, genuinely helps more than he gets in the way, and doesn’t “flaunt his sexuality” by any means. 2 kids in the class’ parents have pulled their kids out of the school because he’s around. They made BS excuses and made sure to say it wasn’t because he’s gay (which everyone easily saw right through), but they both said if he was around their kids they’d go elsewhere. If he was a woman or was heterosexual, they wouldn’t have any objections. There’s others who are around almost as much and aren’t nearly as good with the kids, and not a single thing was said.
It’s pathetic. But it’s stuff like this that makes some of them them not want to disclose things, including things as simple as emergency contacts. It’s not a perfect world.
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Out of all of the time I've spent in martial arts, stuff like that never really came into play with me to take notice. It might have registered for a quick minute and after that it just didn't register as anything to take notice of. I'm there to train so I get lost in my training, forget any problems that I may have, and just be more concern about getting things right and avoiding punches and kicks from my training partner. I would probably have a difficult time telling you the hair color of my sparring partners.
The only thing that would probably stick in my mind would be someone who is Transgender. Which takes this conversation into a entirely different area, meaning it's more about me than them. Other than that. When I train martial arts I focus on training and the rest of the world drops away. The only thing that matters is punch, kick, grab, attack , defend, move, and technique. Anything outside of that doesn't register. I don't care how many black people are in the class and I don't care how many women or men are in the class. I often say that Martial Arts is the most selfish thing that a person can do, because once you start training, it becomes all about you and your development. The only real exception to this rule would be the Instructors, who have to to think about the development of others.
I'm sure there are a lot of LBGT martial artist out there, but it's just doesn't make the big bang or headlines as you may think. That's the draw back of being accepted in a group. You don't become special and you are only recognized for what you do and how you treat others. Race, gender, handicap doesn't become a highlight.
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This is what it means to be accepted by a group. A person's difference doesn't become a highlight. "Not an issue." I have a gay uncle and the only time I even remember he's gay is when conversations like this come up. Other than that it's just not an issue. In terms of martial arts everyone trains and the only thing that hits the radar is how good or how bad someone is at doing the techniques or sparring. I remember all of those people. I can tell you who hits too hard, who is really fast, who does really good forms, who knows the most kung fu, who is lazy with their kung fu, who shows up most often. Things like that register for me.
Robert Agar-Hutton
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WingChunChick asked an interesting question and I wish I had a good answer - I have certainly had openly Lesbian and Homosexual students and never gave it a second thought. One of my students was HIV positive and that was of virtually zero interest as I know enough about HIV/AIDS to know that it's not an issue/risk with normal training. I must, over the years, have had fellow students who were 'gay' but so what?
I think that LGBTQ is kinda the same as TSFS (Tall, Small, Fat and Skinny) - you can choose to identify yourself like that but it is probably simpler just to tell people that you are a human being. Certainly in any martial arts club I have trained at - as far as I know - all human beings who were courteous and interested in learning were welcome.
I think that LGBTQ is kinda the same as TSFS (Tall, Small, Fat and Skinny) - you can choose to identify yourself like that but it is probably simpler just to tell people that you are a human being. Certainly in any martial arts club I have trained at - as far as I know - all human beings who were courteous and interested in learning were welcome.
Yokozuna514
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It is pathetic but I think we should do our part and not even discuss this question as it really has nothing to do with MA. If a person does or doesn’t support it, they should know enough to not participate in a Highly charged topic that has nothing to do with an interest in MA.
My two cents and will say nothing more on the topic but I appreciate the time you took to respond.
JR 137
Grandmaster
I don’t see a question being posed in the post you quoted. But either way, I was just responding to you saying (paraphrased) you didn’t understand why people would have an issue listing their significant other as an emergency contact. Perhaps I misunderstood your post, which is likely. Either way, yeah... I’ve said all I have to say about the topic too. In a good way, same as you.
Yokozuna514
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I believe I was responding to a suggestion that an lbgt person may have to put their partner down as an emergency contact and thus alert people to their sexual orientation. I still think that is a load of malarkey that people should even care to notice. It really has no bearing on anything in my book. Good people are good people regardless of who they have sex with.
JR 137
Grandmaster
Exactly. As I said in my original post, as long as it’s a consenting adult, it shouldn’t matter who is going home to who.
drop bear
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The boundaries in your gym should be able to cover gays training there.
And in fact would probably be a good test of moral consistency. So if you wouldn't want a guy making whatever comments or flaunting something.
Then don't make them yourself.
For me. I am not politically correct at the best of times. So if someone else wants to flaunt. I say go buck wild.
And in fact would probably be a good test of moral consistency. So if you wouldn't want a guy making whatever comments or flaunting something.
Then don't make them yourself.
For me. I am not politically correct at the best of times. So if someone else wants to flaunt. I say go buck wild.
Headhunter
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Honestly I have no idea if anyone I train with is LGBT and frankly I don't care. I'm there to do martial arts if someone's gay or whatever it doesn't affect me either way just like me being straight doesn't matter to anyone who trains with me
dvcochran
Grandmaster
I agree with what you are saying but have to disagree with the example of an emergency contact though. It could just as easily be their brother, or their father if they are an adult and we would not know. The way you say it however is the standard defensive position that is so common today. If we don't want people to think that way, don't make it an issue, in any respect including the converse.
