Let's examine a statement

[Tez3]

Firstly TF you need to look up your history of Africa before Colonial times, you will be surprised at the fact there were civilisations there long before European ones.

http://library.thinkquest.org/C002739/AfricaSite/LMAfricainhistory.htm


No wars in Europe after Second World War?
Greece 1945
Hungary 1956
Czechoslovakia 1968
Northern Ireland 1960 to present day
Balkans 1990s to present day
Cyprus 1956 and 1976



I think what we have here is people with their history as written by Hollywood and thinking oh lets see what we can write that borders on racism and can upset those nice liberals at MT.
I'm not going to add to the wise and good words already written here by people of sense (I've already thanked them) and yes I think this will be locked too.


http://www.ena.lu/civil_war_greece_1945-020703252.html

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

of course it is not ok. if you got that impression, i would apologize.

but when you look at the WHOLE picture, you have to weigh the good with the bad, and in my opinion, more bad than good, by a large measure comes out of sub-saharan africa

"you have seen a very well done play or movie, that you could be an Oscar winning actor as well"

no, but you could TRY, you dont resort back to the bad old days.

" Why is it that one most form a very particular type of culture to be civilized?"

cuz not everything is equal. You have to have SOME standards, and that the ones the anthropologist and socialogists use.

And how do you know there weren't attempts at forming some sort of government? In fact, there were.

If you were unable to make your acting career work out, you know, feed yourself, your family, protect them from danger and provide the basic necessities of life, would you continue to try? Or would you try something else.

Besides, when the U.N. forced people of hostile tribes to be apart of the same country, they already set the system up for disaster. And the U.N., and its component countries, continue to enforce those boundaries. Quite frankly, the white man has stacked the deck against Africans, if you were honest enough to think about it.

As an example, why would the French want to allow the Sudan to fracture into separate countries. The French get huge sums of natural resources from there. The genocide in Darfur facilitates action on their parts to continue their activities. Is it any wonder, that as permanent members of the U.N. Security Council, that they vetoed an attempt to get the U.N. Peacekeeping Forces out of Darfur?

So that being the case, one could make the argument that there is no "after white people left" when it comes to Sub-Saharan Africa, because they continue to interfere.

Another example would be the diamond trade. It suited Europeans and Americans quite nicely to be able to exploit the many areas of Africa that had them. And that would include preventing an organized and effective government that would be able to stop the problems there. But that would mean that an African country would then be able to exploit the natural diamond fields for their own gain. They couldn't have that, now could they. A theatrical example would be the movie "Blood Diamond".

And now you are saying that the standards of culture are to be defined by white anthropologists. Remember one thing, anthropologists are not historians. It is a subtle, yet distinct difference. Anthropologists are concerned with social structure, not the historical issues surrounding a country. Most anthropologists are not even concerned with the recent history of a country, even if they do try to put things into such a context.

 

[Tez3]

http://africanhistory.about.com/od/kingdoms/a/NokCulture.htm

http://africanhistory.about.com/od/mali/p/Timbuktu.htm

http://archaeology.about.com/cs/africa/a/aksum.htm

http://archaeology.about.com/od/tanzania/a/kilwa.htm

http://historymedren.about.com/od/africanplaces/a/splendorafrica.htm

http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/CIVAFRCA/GHANA.HTM

Of course Africa had no civilisations before colonialism............

 

[Nolerama]

I threw the ignorant comment out there because, like Cuong posted, there are a lot of great sub-Saharan African cultures. TF, you should look them up.

They created art.

They created music.

They probably had celebrity artists/engineers as well.

Africans created (for a while) the first peaceful coexistence between Jews, Christians, and Muslims.

Africans had sticks as well. But then again, so do Westerners. I apologize if you felt personally attacked, it'll heal in time.

I feel kinda wronged with the ding threat, though.

 

[Sukerkin]

I have to admit that ancient African history is not something I know a great deal about.

I know that there is evidence for what we as Classically orientated cultures would call Civilisations but I don't know what evidence in specific and what is known as to their trade, cultural pursuits, spirituality et al.

It might make an interesting research project. Is there anyone here who can shine a light as to a 'profitable' line of enquiry?

 

[Twin Fist]

I feel kinda wronged with the ding threat, though.

You will get over it.

I am about done with this, you people are acting like i said "the people are worthless" when all I said was that thier cultures never developed any of the accepted milestones of an advanced culture.

 

[Xue Sheng]

accepted milestones of an advanced culture.

I am curious, what are those exactly?

 

[CoryKS]

Sorry for the white-racial slurs. If it makes any body less offended, I'm 97% white (the remaining 3% is Cherokee Native American)

It's cool. You're not the first person on these boards to suffer from the Tourettes of Righteousness. Several others are inflicted; one in particular, I think, reacts strongly to any whiff of racialism partly so that he can use racial epithets with impunity.

 

[Tez3]

You will get over it.

I am about done with this, you people are acting like i said "the people are worthless" when all I said was that thier cultures never developed any of the accepted milestones of an advanced culture.

Accepted by who exactly, you? what do you regard as higher culture?

Quote In the 13th century Mali rose under the leadership of the Malinke Sundiata to become renowned throughout the Arab world for its wealth and learning unquote
http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/africa/features/storyofafrica/index.shtml

Quote The Coast of East Africa has had a long history of trade, involving constant exchanges of ideas, style and commodities for well over two thousand years. Marriage between women of Africa and men of the Middle East created and cemented a rich Swahili culture, fusing urban and agricultural communities, rich in architecture, textiles, and food, as well as purchasing power unquote

This is a good site for learning the history of Africa.

 

[Twin Fist]

I am curious, what are those exactly?

written language
permenant buildings
growing of crops

those are the big three.

 

[elder999]

written language
permenant buildings
growing of crops

those are the big three.

Is this permanent enough for ya?

 

[elder999]

Written language is a cultural bias most sociologists and anthropologists have rejected. Africa has a long history of oral traditions, and there were people designated and trained to memorize great amounts of data and relate it orally-still are, in some places. With a tradition of "memory keepers" like these, what need was there for "written language?" There was also, where needed, a tradition of mental calculation and memorization-again, no need for written arithmetic, when someone could do it in their head for you.In any case, there were African cultures that had written language.Throughout sub-Saharan Africa, dedication to traditions of scholarship and literary production has ensured that knowledge of the past has survived for hundreds of years. During the Middle Ages, major centers of religious learning arose in both East and West Africa, hastening the spread of literacy and promoting reverence for the power of the written word. Monasteries throughout Christian Ethiopia produced illuminated manuscripts of great refinement and beauty written in Ge'ez, the indigenous written language of the royal court. Literate individuals also produced autobiographical accounts and other writings of a secular nature.

The Ethiopian Coptic Church is considered by most historians and theologians to be one of the oldest extant Christian sects, btw, with a sustained and relatively unchanged tradition dating to the 4th century.

The idea that "no seasons=no farming" is also preposterous. No seasons means more farming, usually, as there are essentially two growing seasons.. The fact that large-scale cultivation of the kind you envision wasn't evident in most places doesn't mean that villages didn't farm before the coming of Europeans. They just farmed differently, on a smaller-scale, with scattered plots. This method of farming-which, incidentally, Indians in South America also used/use-was less intensive, and led to less environmental consequences than clear cutting the land and growing a single crop.

 

[qwksilver61]

Can't make everyone happy,the world is no safer,in fact it's even smaller,and technology will enslave all of mankind.Poor humans,they've managed to paint themselves into......well....a piece of the hemisphere.......

 

[Xue Sheng]

written language
permenant buildings
growing of crops

those are the big three.

So Ancient Egypt, Greece, Rome and Ancient China as far back as the Zhou Dynasty are all advanced, American Indians are not, no permanent buildings but they grew crops, had writing, but then there were the mound builders do they count as advanced? But yet we based the constitution, at least in part, on the Iroquois Great Law of Peace and the Iroquois would not be considered advanced by your definition. And of course Babylonia is not advanced, no buildings left. But wait there are some ancient races in Africa that have left behind permanent buildings and had writing and grew crops. And there were some that at one time were even Pharos of Egypt who by your definition were advanced. Aztecs are way advanced as are the Inca (I suppose that whole human sacrifice thing doesn’t count much they had writing, grew crops and had permanent buildings) Eskimos, nope not advanced. Mongols not advanced either, even though they did at one time rule China. The Japanese, yup advanced. Vikings not advanced but they were damn good navigators.

And of course there were the Sumerians that are credited with the earliest known form of written expression aka cuneiform script but I don't know if there are any buildings left so they certainly were not permanent.

But wait the Earth is not permanent it will eventually be incinerated by the sun so nothing is permanent so no one is advanced

You might want to look here

 

[elder999]

Prior to colonial time, European culture was superior to the sub-saharan african cultures. While DaVinci was painting? the zulus were killing each other with sharp sticks..

Oh, and on a more martial note, the weapon of choice for the Zulus was the assegai, a short, iron headed spear. It's equivalent existed in several other African cultures as well-in fact, I own a few.....

 

[Tez3]

written language
permenant buildings
growing of crops

those are the big three.

Then they are well qualified and you have shown that you know nothing about African culture.
Some African written languages
Vai - Liberia
Niger Delta Nsibidi
Cameroon - Banum
Mali - Fulan
and Sesotho a very early written language.

Mali has permanent buildings dating from the 15th century, it had the University of Sankore established in 1581 in Timbuktu which was a centre of learning as well as a significent writing tradition. Many of the manuscripts written in fulan and Arabic have been preserved.

I can't imagine why you think Africans don't grow crops, they have been since 1000BC!
http://louisville.edu/a-s/history/herlin/textsup.htm

 

[Nolerama]

TF: Back your arguments with facts.

Ethiopic writing was developed in Ethiopia in order to accommodate not only the native Ethiopians, but to acclimate to other languages. Ethiopic was used to write down the Hebrew, Arabic, Greek and (arguably) Latin languages in order to ease trading between the cultures.

" Ethiopic is an African Writing System designed as a meaningful and graphic representation of knowledge. It is a component of the African Knowledge Systems and one of the signal contributions made by Africans to the world history and cultures. It is created to holistically symbolize and locate the cultural and historical parameters of the Ethiopian people. The System, in its classic state, has a total of 182 syllographs, which are arranged in seven columns, each column containing 26 syllographs. Ethiopic is a knowledge system because it is brilliantly organized to represent philosophical features, such as ideography, mnumonics, syllography, astronomy, and grammatology."

They still use the written language today. And that's personal testimony.

Senegal has some pretty nifty buildings. They're "permanent", too and are not just straw huts. In fact, one of the oldest standing Christian churches in the world is located in Ethiopia and is compared to the Taj Mahal in its symmetry and beauty. The Church of St. George was said to be built by an Ethiopian King because God told him so. It's considered one of the "wonders of the world."

As far as "the growing of crops" goes, I'm pretty sure you're partially correct. Africa today produces a fraction of the world's export crops. That doesn't mean it doesn't produce crops at all, just not a cornucopia of edibles in the way we're used to in the Western world.

Most of the continent is desert or rainforest, both not the absolute best for growing crops. Many of the sustenance farmers in the river valleys grow enough to feed their families and raise livestock. But they do raise crops, and in the temperate zones in the North and South of the continent, comfort food crops and exportable goods are grown.

You write about how people should back up their statements with facts. You don't.

 

[Twin Fist]

Xue,
Dont forget the cliff dwellings built in the american southwest. And no, a building doesnt have to stand for 5000 years to be considered permenent.

But wait, you are just being argumentative.......no offense, but i am not interested in getting into a flame war, or a nick pick fight.



*sigh*
thats what i get for taking Elder off ignore, more of his crap..........but wait, there is actually a gem in the pile:

Elder, that picture you posted? They dont know who built it. The design shows both local and non-local elements. Local legend isnt clear on the issue. It is damned impressive, Thats for sure, and it makes sense to build a trading post over a gold mine. I had never heard of that site before, but it is very cool. It is certainly unique in the area. I am gonna read up on that site. It is very interesting.

as for the Zulu spear, it isnt sub-saharan in origin, but from the Berber region. Apparently though, iron working in sub-saharan african people goes back to about 1000 BC, which i didnt know. makes sense tho.

 

[Sukerkin]

Gentlemen, in any debate it is perfectly acceptable and free of blame to admit you don't know something or concede you had a misconception. This ties neatly in with the thread about 'Open and Closed Thinking'.

If you can do this then not only do you tend to learn more but people in general tend to think better of you.

The reverse is also true and is sadly the more prevelent state of mind in Internetland .

 

[Tez3]

Xue,
Dont forget the cliff dwellings built in the american southwest. And no, a building doesnt have to stand for 5000 years to be considered permenent.

But wait, you are just being argumentative.......no offense, but i am not interested in getting into a flame war, or a nick pick fight.



*sigh*
thats what i get for taking Elder off ignore, more of his crap..........but wait, there is actually a gem in the pile:

Elder, that picture you posted? They dont know who built it. The design shows both local and non-local elements. Local legend isnt clear on the issue. It is damned impressive, Thats for sure, and it makes sense to build a trading post over a gold mine. I had never heard of that site before, but it is very cool. It is certainly unique in the area. I am gonna read up on that site. It is very interesting.

as for the Zulu spear, it isnt sub-saharan in origin, but from the Berber region. Apparently though, iron working in sub-saharan african people goes back to about 1000 BC, which i didnt know. makes sense tho.

Do you have to use the word 'crap'?

it's an offensive word.

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