Let's discuss the Xu Xiaodong vs Ding Hao fight.

[DanT]

I agree with KPM that Ip Man 'Classical Wing Chun' is unprepared for modern MMA or many realistic street encounters.

The WC guy in the Xu Xiaodong fight above is making the 'classical' mistake of keeping his lead leg extended - presenting a near target - a side-body neutral stance is more traditional.

When I trained with the EWTO they did include Anti-grappling / groundwork as part of the curriculum but their footwork / facing strategy was sorely lacking.
One of Ip Chun's top students came off worst vs an MMA guy years ago:

At least some lineages are now including methods to deal with varied attacks, but yes, WC is in a delusional state.
Criticize Sifu Benny Meng all you want but he was ahead of the curve in this aspect.

Why is there not even a method to get up from the ground in any of the WC forms? I was told it is at the end of the Bil Jee form but if you try to use it, it hardly works! (There is a good method in Monkey Kung FU for getting up which I am adding to my personal curriculum).

It's not in any form, but as I mentioned previously, I personally learned several ways to get up from my Sifu, all of which he learned from the other Martial Arts he knows. Wing Chun itself doesn't provide any method of standing up. In Shaolin I can think of 10+ ways of standing up.

 

[DanT]

I don't think someone would be able to do a simple shuffle to avoid that type specific type of kick to the knee, if they are in a boxing stance. The type of shuffle that would get you out of the range of that kick requires the legs to be in a specific position and for weight to be distributed differently. If you have to put weight on your front leg before the shuffle then you won't be able to get out of the way of the kick.

You have to keep in mind that boxing footwork was developed outside of the context of being kicked. I just showed you a video of MMA fighters who couldn't get out of the way and they were using boxing structure.

Here's another example. You can see him try to shuffle, but his structure is not the one that he needs in order to successfully get out of the way.

edit: I can guaranteed that if kicking was allowed in boxing, that the boxer's stance and boxers method of shuffling would change in a way that will allow it to be more effect against the kicks. I'm not saying that one shuffle is better than the other, but one shuffle was created in the context of avoiding kicks and punches and the other one wasn't. If you are fighting against someone who kicks then you want to have the footwork that was designed to move you away from kicks.

I think KPM is referring to boxing footwork in terms of a short, medium, and extremely long range where kicks aren't a factor. Boxing and MMA footwork are fairly similar. It's only in kicking range that the footwork needs to be slightly adjusted.

 

[DanT]

I think we can all agree that 95% of Wing Chun is poorly suited for any real encounter. We all seem to agree that adding a basic ground game is fundimental.

 

[wckf92]

Here is an example of body spinning. Spin back fist, back kick, ... can all be added in if needed.

Some WC lineages aleady contain a 360 spin motion in their form(s).

 

[JowGaWolf]

I don't agree that training stance lays the basis for good footwork.

Stationary stance training doesn't lay the basis of good footwork. But it does help certain elements. For example, stance training will help you become more aware of slight shifts in your own balance and it provides some leg conditioning benefits as well, but these are more fine tuning aspects. The majority of the footwork basics is going to involve actually moving. Stance training basics should be done in the context of moving, which is what you are talking about.

When I was teaching kung fu classes, I would start each class with moving the feet by doing drills such as moving forward, backwards, etc. We did more of that than we did stationary stance training. Stationary stance training was done as a secondary training, sort of like calm your mind keep the stance and focus of how the body's weight distribution shifts. Focusing on a 50/50 weight distribution for horse stance made the shifts more noticeable as we try to maintain a 50/50 balance.

I know this mindset contradicts what most CMA schools teaches where standing in a horse stance for 5 minutes is a goal. To me standing for 5 minutes is a waste of 4 minutes. I personally know people who can stay in a horse stance for 5 minutes only to have goofy feet when moving during sparring.

 

[wckf92]

Stationary stance training doesn't lay the basis of good footwork. But it does help certain elements. For example, stance training will help you become more aware of slight shifts in your own balance and it provides some leg conditioning benefits as well, but these are more fine tuning aspects. The majority of the footwork basics is going to involve actually moving. Stance training basics should be done in the context of moving, which is what you are talking about.

When I was teaching kung fu classes, I would start each class with moving the feet by doing drills such as moving forward, backwards, etc. We did more of that than we did stationary stance training. Stationary stance training was done as a secondary training, sort of like calm your mind keep the stance and focus of how the body's weight distribution shifts. Focusing on a 50/50 weight distribution for horse stance made the shifts more noticeable as we try to maintain a 50/50 balance.

I know this mindset contradicts what most CMA schools teaches where standing in a horse stance for 5 minutes is a goal. To me standing for 5 minutes is a waste of 4 minutes. I personally know people who can stay in a horse stance for 5 minutes only to have goofy feet when moving during sparring.

I get what you mean, but IMHO single leg horse training is vital to having a good rooted stable horse whether that horse is stationary or dynamic.

The WC community is plagued with practitioners who have rushed the development of the lower half.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I get what you mean, but IMHO single leg horse training is vital to having a good rooted stable horse whether that horse is stationary or dynamic.

The WC community is plagued with practitioners who have rushed the development of the lower half.

If you train 100 hip throw solo drills, you will get better benefit than just to stand in horse stance for 5 minutes. To train footwork can also enhance your stance training. There is a way that you can kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

If you train footwork like this daily, you will develop very strong rooting.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think KPM is referring to boxing footwork in terms of a short, medium, and extremely long range where kicks aren't a factor.

Oh. ok. from that perspective, a shuffle of any type will most likely get you out of the way of the first strike for the most part. Directional changes in the shuffle may be required on the second shuffle, but other than that a shuffle will work.

Boxing and MMA footwork are fairly similar. It's only in kicking range that the footwork needs to be slightly adjusted.

The danger with the leg kicks that Jon Jones does is that they are done from a deceptive stance. The stance is such where the it doesn't look like a kick is going to come from it. The kick also travels below the human's visual range. The jumping kick is a deceptive jump that freezes the opponent.

The lower stance that is common with martial arts stances, changes the field of vision and makes it easier to read the movement and increases the possibility of avoiding it. The only reason I know this is because I've trained to fight in a lower stance and the view is definitely different. I feel more comfortable at a lower stance but it takes a lot of leg stamina to do so which is where the traditional stationary stance training helps.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I get what you mean, but IMHO single leg horse training is vital to having a good rooted stable horse whether that horse is stationary or dynamic.

It helps with the rooting, but not the movement of the feet. Which is why we see videos of MMA vs Kung Fu master videos where the kung fu master seems to have stumbling footwork. By the way I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just adding to your statement.
stumbling feet

stumbling feet

stumbling feet but not as bad as the first 2 videos. Only pay attention to the legs and you'll see where he stumbles. You can actually see where his balance shifts in a way that would leave him open to a variety of sweeps and throws. You can see more stability in the legs of the guy in the white pants.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The MMA guy only uses hook punches. He didn't even throw one single jab or cross. This is the opposite of the WC approach. I have always believed that if

- A only throws hook punches and
- B only throws jab and cross,

A will have advantage over B. What do you guys think on this?

 

[DanT]

The MMA guy only uses hook punches. He didn't even throw one single jab or cross. This is the opposite of the WC approach. I have always believed that if

- A only throws hook punches and
- B only throws jab and cross,

A will have advantage over B. What do you guys think on this?

Realistically, it's extremely difficult to knock someone out with a jab, meaning you're power shot is limited to your rear hand, therefore you only have 1 knockout punch. 95% of Chunners basically throw all their punches as jabs, so they can't knock anyone out (they don't know how to rotate their hips and shoulders to get maximum power). Both a front and rear Hook can knock someone's head off. A complete punching system such as Shaolin has:

-Straights
-Hooks
-Uppercuts
-Overhands
-Backfists

 

[drop bear]

The MMA guy only uses hook punches. He didn't even throw one single jab or cross. This is the opposite of the WC approach. I have always believed that if

- A only throws hook punches and
- B only throws jab and cross,

A will have advantage over B. What do you guys think on this?

in general that is the case. Unless you are a lot better than him at throwing punches.

 

[drop bear]

It helps with the rooting, but not the movement of the feet. Which is why we see videos of MMA vs Kung Fu master videos where the kung fu master seems to have stumbling footwork. By the way I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just adding to your statement.
stumbling feet

stumbling feet

stumbling feet but not as bad as the first 2 videos. Only pay attention to the legs and you'll see where he stumbles. You can actually see where his balance shifts in a way that would leave him open to a variety of sweeps and throws. You can see more stability in the legs of the guy in the white pants.

You can do all the stance training in the world. But when you get exited and start either reaching to hit people or overeacting to avoid hits. Your footwork goes to hell.

 

[Nobody Important]

The misconception about a jab is that it is thrown with power, it is not. The jab has 3 purposes:

1. Keep your opponent blind to your movement

2. Set your opponent up.

3. Keep your opponent at distance.

Wing Chun has hooks, uppercuts, crosses etc. Hip movement is there, as well as angling, head movement, body rotation etc. IMO it just isn't utilized much because the majority of Chunners can't envision it being used outside of a Western Boxing context. Instead opting to rely on static structure to absorb while trying to Chi Sau their way out of trouble.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The jab has 3 purposes:

1. Keep your opponent blind to your movement
2. Set your opponent up.
3. Keep your opponent at distance.

There is the 4th purpose for jab. That is to bait your opponent's leading arm to block it. You then pull his leading arm toward you, borrow the counter force to move in.

Your jab can be a spear with hook that can hook back anything it may contact during a stab.

 

[Nobody Important]

There is the 4th purpose for jab. That is to pull your opponent's leading arm toward you. You then borrow the counter force to move in.

I don't completely disagree, but technically that would fall under setting them up. As far as the pulling tactic, personally Im not a big supporter of it as a means of control, especially at distance. If it happens naturally it can be an assest, but in my experience intentionally focusing on trying to pull the opponents hand from distance is a low percentage move unless bridge contact is already established. In this scenario it isn't a jab, just a pull from a pre-established bridge. Otherwise, IMO, it's just hand chasing. It's extremely difficult to catch a fast moving punch.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I have always believed that if

- A only throws hook punches and
- B only throws jab and cross,

A will have advantage over B. What do you guys think on this?

Straight punches can beat circular punches and circular punches can beat straight punches. It depends on who does a better job of setting them up with the proper footwork, angles, body mechanics, and head movement.

 

[KPM]

It's not the structure, it's the footwork.

Boxing has no concept of

- rooting leg, and
- attacking leg.

In order to apply your leg skill (use your leg to attack your opponent's leg), you have to land your rooting leg at the right spot during the right time, so you will have the correct

- distance,
- angle, and
- timing.

When a boxer moves his leg, he will only think about his punches. He will not think about his leg skill. How important is a boxer to consider his opponent weight shifting from one leg to another? It's totally different priority consideration.

You are assuming a sport boxer here John. We are talking about using the Boxing structure as a martial art. In that context, none of what you said is true.

 

[KPM]

The misconception about a jab is that it is thrown with power, it is not. The jab has 3 purposes:

True! But a lead hand punch CAN be a power punch! Its just usually not called a jab at that point. This was Bruce Lee's forte, and a key punch in JKD.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

True! But a lead hand punch CAN be a power punch! Its just usually not called a jab at that point. This was Bruce Lee's forte, and a key punch in JKD.

Agree! If you are a wrestler, you have to put your strong side forward (major hand forward, and minor hand backward). If you strike, you have to depend on your leading hand.

Not sure people will call this "jab" or not.