Let's discuss the Xu Xiaodong vs Ding Hao fight.

[Kung Fu Wang]

Mainly because you wear gloves in boxing. However one punch in boxing is followed immediately by a second and third. This combination striking is useful for Wing Chun. Many are without it.

If WC uses the boxing approach, and if the pulling is not emphasized after the punch, the WC will always be a pure striking art. The wrestling art will never be able to be integrated into the WC system. The WC Fu Shou is a pulling. The connection between the striking art and the wrestling art is already available. It's just not used to be linked to the wrestling art.

Here is another CMA striking art that uses pulling (similar to WC Fu Shou) to link to the wrestling art.

The preying mantis system also uses Diao Shou (similar to WC Fu Shou) to achieve the same goal.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

MMA is a very effective route for doing that. But it is also a very unforgiving route.

If you just fight the golden glove boxing once in your life time, you will modify your MA training for the rest of your life. When you have seen that your opponent moves in like an animal and tries to knock your head off, you then realize how important it is to protect your head from punching.

 

[KPM]

I think for the most part, many Wing Chun schools introduce body rotation fairly early on, but fail to implement it in actual sparring and combat. Body rotation can be found in the Chum Kiu and Bil Jee forms, both of which are usually taught before the Wooden Dummy. The reality is that if a student doesn't have good body work and footwork by the time they get to the weapons, they won't get any better. Footwork is extremely lacking in 95% of Wing Chun taught. In order to fix this, the Wing Chun student should look at Boxing, which along with their strikes, specialize in footwork. Wing Chun should adapt Boxing footwork, head movement, and striking combination strategies. It should also adopt Boxing / MMA training strategies (running, weight lifting, skipping). Adding a ground game via BJJ is also important. Wing Chun must adapt. It is adapting. In 25 years it will be unrecognizable from the Wing Chun of Yip Man. That is a good thing.

Man, just say that in the facebook forum and you'll catch all kinds of hell!!! But I agree with you!

 

[KPM]

For the most part, most Boxing footwork can be found in certain Southern styles such as White Crane, which heavily emphasizes side stepping and pivoting. Yes, although I am not a professional boxer, boxing also involves side stepping and circling away from the power arm. Boxing encompass a complete footwork system that vastly overpowers 95% of the Wing Chun footwork taught. That is why Bruce Lee studied Boxing in addition to Wing Chun. It completes the system by adding head movement, footwork, conditioning, and combination strategies.

And....the specific "engine" or body mechanics to go with good fast footwork with rotational power generation for fast combination punches from multiple angles.

 

[JowGaWolf]

- Lack of mobile footwork

This is the most surprising in all of these type of videos. I guess it's because of all of the competitive sports that I've played. For me footwork is the most basic thing that a person can do for a physical activity is footwork and balance. Yet, we see so many videos of bad footwork. I was thinking that even if they didn't know how to fight, that at least their footwork and coordination would be good.

 

[KPM]

Ok. I laid this out in the "Martial Boxing Forum" on FB as well. The guy in the OP on this thread is doing fairly standard "classical" Wing Chun. One could argue that he isn't doing a great job of it, but it is the way Wing Chun functioned back a generation ago. Because back in Ip Man's day, and certainly in Leung Jan's day, they faced a very different kind of fighter. Wing Chun was really designed to face guys that fought like this:

Here is an example of a Wing Chun guy facing someone like in the above video. Notice it isn't much different than what the guy is doing in the OP video:

Like I said.....Wing Chun guys have been "evolving" their "classical" Wing Chun to work better in a modern sparring/fighting environment. And they are doing this by starting to do more and more "Boxing-like" things with their Wing Chun. But many of them won't admit this, even to themselves! They say this is just how to make Wing Chun work! All the while totally ignoring or denying the western boxing influences on what they are doing! So, if they actually admit what is going on and actually focus on developing it as DanT has said, then the evolution will proceed much more quickly and efficiently! Instead, too many seem to have this loyalty to "tradition" and don't want to be seen as being outside of it. So they go to great lengths to justify what they are doing without saying they are borrowing from boxing or kickboxing. Recently when two Wing Chun fighters were seen throwing pretty standard Thai round kicks swinging from the hips, one well-known Sifu even tried to justify it by saying that it was simply "momentum handling from the Bui Gee form"!!!!

And I'm sure many of you will recall a past discussion here where some WSLVT guys were training for MMA and doing fairly standard "high covers" from boxing....but were said to be doing "pure WSLVT" and the high cover motion was just the sweeping arm motion from the 3rd section of the Bui Gee form!

Now I don't want to see "classical" Wing Chun disappear! There are many reasons for studying a martial art and not everyone has aspirations to be a fighter. There is certainly room for both "streams" of Wing Chun! But what really gets me is the people that try and deny that there are two distinct "streams" of Wing Chun that have been developing for awhile now!

If you had put one of Alan Orr's boys up against Xu rather than a "classical" Wing Chun guy, the results likely would have been VERY different!

 

[DanT]

It is very hard to release the mental baggage of years of martial arts training and actually look at what works and what doesn't.

MMA is a very effective route for doing that. But it is also a very unforgiving route.

I have so many martial arts moves I just can't do any more solely because they are not efficient. And the people I train with will not give me the time and space to fart around.

And it sucks because it means breaking all these preconceived ideas of what being a martial artist is.

I agree with you. A few years ago I put my training on hold for 3 months, signed up at the local MMA club, sparred like mad with them every day for 3 months straight, learned some things off of them and they learned some things from me. I picked up some useful training methods that I've added into my own training. I like experimenting. Two years ago I signed up as a "test subject" for the local police trainees. My job was to kick the **** out of them while they tried to arrest me. Man was that fun. God do I hate batons.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

However one punch in boxing is followed immediately by a second and third. This combination striking is useful for Wing Chun. Many are without it.

The switch hands principle is missing in boxing. The boxing combination is always right, left, right, left, ... The CMA combination can be right, left, right, left, ... . But CMA can also use switch hands such as:

- You throw a right punch, your opponent blocks it.
- You pull your opponent's blocking arm with your right hand.
- You then use your left hand to take over your opponent's blocking arm (this will free your right arm).
- You still punch back with your right hand.

I don't think boxing uses this principle at all. If WC uses the boxing combo principle, WC will miss the "switch hands" principle.

 

[DanT]

The switch hands principle is missing in boxing. The boxing combination is always right, left, right, left, ... The CMA combination can be right, left, right, left, ... . But CMA can also use switch hands such as:

- You throw a right punch, your opponent blocks it.
- You pull your opponent's blocking arm with your right hand.
- You then use your left hand to take over your opponent's blocking arm (this will free your right arm).
- You still punch back with your right hand.

I don't think boxing uses this principle at all. If WC uses the boxing combo principle, WC will miss the "switch hands" principle.

Actually, Boxing uses the same hand to strike multiple times, Mike Tyson was excellent at this. Common combinations include:

-Jab, cross, left hook, right upper cut x2, right Hook

-Jab x2, left hook

That is a perfect example.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Boxing uses the same hand to strike multiple times, ...

If WC takes the

- boxing path, WC may be able to reach to the boxing level.
- wrestling integration path (such as Sanda), WC may be able to reach to the MMA level (or Sanda level).

IMO,

MMA path (or Sanda path) > boxing path

 

[KPM]

I think the "boxing path" would be a more productive and a better fit for Wing Chun than the "MMA/San Da" path simply because the boxing biomechanic is generally tight and compact and a more natural transition for Wing Chun. I don't mean that one would exclude kicks and sweeps and such. I'm just saying that sticking to a boxing "engine" as much as possible and avoiding wide postures and long movements is more "Wing Chun-like" and therefore a better fit.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think the "boxing path" would be a more productive and a better fit for Wing Chun ...

But boxing (pure striking art) and Judo/wrestling (pure wrestling art) are just a subset of the Sanda which is also a subset of the MMA. No matter which path that you may take, if you want to compete with MMA guys, you still have to integrate the wrestling art and the ground game art.

I don't believe a your goal is just to be able to defeat a boxer. For short term goal, the boxing path may be OK. For long term goal, the wrestling path just cannot be avoided.

WC + boxing = pure striking art
WC + boxing + wrestling/Judo = Sanda (no ground game)
WC + boxing + wrestling/Judo + BJJ = MMA

It depends on how far that you want your WC system to evolve.

 

[KPM]

You obviously didn't read my entire post:

" I don't mean that one would exclude kicks and sweeps and such. I'm just saying that sticking to a boxing "engine" as much as possible and avoiding wide postures and long movements is more "Wing Chun-like" and therefore a better fit."

 

[DanT]

But boxing (pure striking art) and Judo/wrestling (pure wrestling art) are just a subset of the Sanda which is also a subset of the MMA. No matter which path that you may take, if you want to compete with MMA guys, you still have to integrate the wrestling art and the ground game art.

I don't believe a your goal is just to be able to defeat a boxer. For short term goal, the boxing path may be OK. For long term goal, the wrestling path just cannot be avoided.

WC + boxing = pure striking art
WC + boxing + wrestling/Judo = Sanda (no ground game)
WC + boxing + wrestling/Judo + BJJ = MMA

It depends on how far that you want your WC system to evolve.

The issue is with Wing Chun as a STRIKING system. 95% of it has limited footwork, limited head movement, limited striking patters, and limited conditioning. Incorporating Boxing fixes these problems. Grappling is important, which is why I suggest crosstraining in BJJ and incorporating Grappling as well (even if only white belt techniques).

 

[Nobody Important]

Reading through these posting I find a lot that I agree with, I also find a lot of misconceptions about classical Wing Chun. Our perceptions of classical Wing Chun largely come from Yip Man's lineage. Now this isnt to disparage this lineage, but, their function and approach is very specific. It became very popular very fast and was emulated by other branches because of its commercial success. I want to state that for the record, that some traditional CMA's still do and have always emphasized the full array of skills that laid the foundation of Sanda through deployment of Ti, Da, Shuai, Na. I was fortunate enough to have studied under individuals that emphasized Qinna theory. Now most people associate Qinna with grappling, but this is a fallacy, Qinna theory actually incorporates the full array of fighting methods. These include: Separating the Muscle, Tearing Muscle, Misplacing the Bone, Vein Seizing and Strangulation, and Cavity Press. The way all these methods are achieved are through Ti (Kicking), Da (Striking), Shuai (Throwing) & Na (Seizing). Qinna theory states that every major movement of a form has the application of each Qinna method contained within them. The problem lies in the fact that few truly understand the theory or know how to extrapolate the application from the movement and focus solely on what they believe to be obvious and refuse to believe that there are other applications to the movement that contradict their initial belief of what it represents. This is the true understanding of a conceptual martial art. All the elements are there if you take the time to look and truly understand what it is that you are doing. Once understood there is no need to force a strategy upon a movement to support a narrative of a pigeon holed belief. Now a Bong Sau becomes something more than a sweeping parry, it becomes a choke, an elbow strike or a lock, Tan Sau becomes a strike, choke or fundamental set up for a throw, etc. The forms purpose is to act as an encyclopedia of information that is to be extrapolated and then put into use. It is a guideline only, not something written is stone to be blindly adhered to as the only representation of movement, use, structure and form, it is a BASIC idea. Some CMA's contain no structured forms in their system thus allowing for numerous interpretations of their theory, Wing Chun is no different. It's the lineage masters that limit the system, it's not the systems that are limited. When looked at from this perspective and approached from this philosophy, CMA's can be very practical and effective methods that allow for numerous interpretations based on personal preference without sacrificing traditional integrity. In this aspect, cross training now serves to strengthen personal weakness and help one to better understand methods like boxing or grappling that emphasize and specialize in a specific aspect.

 

[DanT]

Reading through these posting I find a lot that I agree with, I also find a lot of misconceptions about classical Wing Chun. Our perceptions of classical Wing Chun largely come from Yip Man's lineage. Now this isnt to disparage this lineage, but, their function and approach is very specific. It became very popular very fast and was emulated by other branches because of its commercial success. I want to state that for the record, that some traditional CMA's still do and have always emphasized the full array of skills that laid the foundation of Sanda through deployment of Ti, Da, Shuai, Na. I was fortunate enough to have studied under individuals that emphasized Qinna theory. Now most people associate Qinna with grappling, but this is a fallacy, Qinna theory actually incorporates the full array of fighting methods. These include: Separating the Muscle, Tearing Muscle, Misplacing the Bone, Vein Seizing and Strangulation, and Cavity Press. The way all these methods are achieved are through Ti (Kicking), Da (Striking), Shuai (Throwing) & Na (Seizing). Qinna theory states that every major movement of a form has the application of each Qinna method contained within them. The problem lies in the fact that few truly understand the theory or know how to extrapolate the application from the movement and focus solely on what they believe to be obvious and refuse to believe that there are other applications to the movement that contradict their initial belief of what it represents. This is the true understanding of a conceptual martial art. All the elements are there if you take the time to look and truly understand what it is that you are doing. Once understood there is no need to force a strategy upon a movement to support a narrative of a pigeon holed belief. Now a Bong Sau becomes something more than a sweeping parry, it becomes a choke, an elbow strike or a lock, Tan Sau becomes a strike, choke or fundamental set up for a throw, etc. The forms purpose is to act as an encyclopedia of information that is to be extrapolated and then put into use. It is a guideline only, not something written is stone to be blindly adhered to as the only representation of movement, use, structure and form, it is a BASIC idea. Some CMA's contain no structured forms in their system thus allowing for numerous interpretations of their theory, Wing Chun is no different. It's the lineage masters that limit the system, it's not the systems that are limited. When looked at from this perspective and approached from this philosophy, CMA's can be very practical and effective methods that allow for numerous interpretations based on personal preference without sacrificing traditional integrity. In this aspect, cross training now serves to strengthen personal weakness and help one to better understand methods like boxing or grappling that emphasize and specialize in a specific aspect.

As a TCMA practitioner myself, I'm inclined to agree. The issue at hand here is how 95% of Wing Chun taught is inferior to almost all other Martial Arts. The 5% that is good is only because they adopt training methods and concepts from other Martial Arts. A majority of Wing Chun is limited in its footwork, conditioning methods, strikes, etc.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

A majority of Wing Chun is limited in its footwork, ...

Many years ago, in one challenge fight against a TKD black belt, I was about 12 feet away from my opponent.

- I had my left leg forward,
- I stepped in with my left leg,
- jumped up with my left leg,
- landed on my right leg,
- landed my left foot behind and forward of my right leg as a "stealing step".
- I then leaned my body forward,

finally my right fist could hit on my opponent's face and ended that fight. My opponent didn't know that I could punch him from 12 feet away (I was young and I could jump). If I didn't learn that "far jumping forward" footwork, that fight won't be ended so soon.

That footwork can be seen at 0.58 in the following clip. CMA has a lot of good footworks. IMO, there is no need to look for in the boxing system.

Many good footwork can be seen in this clip too. At 0.31, there is a "far jump backward" footwork. If your opponent moves in toward you and tries to knock your head off, a far distance backward jump can let you to regain that safe distance.

 

[KPM]

As a TCMA practitioner myself, I'm inclined to agree. The issue at hand here is how 95% of Wing Chun taught is inferior to almost all other Martial Arts. The 5% that is good is only because they adopt training methods and concepts from other Martial Arts. A majority of Wing Chun is limited in its footwork, conditioning methods, strikes, etc.

I agree that what we are referring to or describing as "classical" Wing Chun really is "classical Ip Man" Wing Chun. But I'm not sure how far off that is from how other "classical" Wing Chun systems were meant to function. I doubt that there is a huge difference though. But I also agree with DanT and think that the problem is not so much in understanding the concepts behind the system, but really in the fact that it has the wrong "engine" for fast evasive footwork & body movement, and quick combinations of punches from multiple angles.

BTW....welcome back "Nobody Important"!!!

 

[Buka]

@NobodyImportant - welcome back, bro.

 

[Nobody Important]

I agree that what we are referring to or describing as "classical" Wing Chun really is "classical Ip Man" Wing Chun. But I'm not sure how far off that is from how other "classical" Wing Chun systems were meant to function. I doubt that there is a huge difference though. But I also agree with DanT and think that the problem is not so much in understanding the concepts behind the system, but really in the fact that it has the wrong "engine" for fast evasive footwork & body movement, and quick combinations of punches from multiple angles.

BTW....welcome back "Nobody Important"!!!

I agree to an extent. Now, speaking specifically to my branch of Yuen Family Wing Chun, our emphasis is on grappling first with boxing being a supplement. This changes the "engine" dramatically from a boxing only/first methodology. For us it works and from our perspective makes more logical sense for a lot of movements and positions that seem out of place from a boxing perspective. To me, I see an equal distribution of Ti, Da , Shuai, & Na in Yuen Family Wing Chun. I say that our primary emphasis is on grappling because our strategy and belief is that if Wing Chun is a close quarter method, what is closer than grappling? Our method is designed around the clinch and our punching, kicking, grappling & throwing techniques are based on being grabbed. This means that a lot of the movement and strategy is centered around the clinch and not about trying to close the gap from a distance, grappling on the ground or boxing from a distance as a means to subjugate. While our method has some movement and techniques to address these areas, there are better methods for that, but in the clinch, used right, Wing Chun is king IMO. To me it's a specialty method that shouldn't be forced into a paradigm that it wasn't meant to work in. Hence, me always iterating that its a method of refinement based around the clinch. From here you can go to whatever range you want, ground, kick, punch, throwing but youll need a seperate method that supports the mode. IMO Wing Chun does not effectively address other ranges, it was designed for clinch.