Let's discuss the Xu Xiaodong vs Ding Hao fight.

[Nobody Important]

Thanks for the welcome back everyone.

 

[wckf92]

Thanks for the welcome back everyone.

Welcome back NI

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

our emphasis is on grappling first with boxing being a supplement.

I do agree this approach is better.

If you train wrestling, do you want to add Judo knowledge, or do you want to add boxing knowledge? Since Judo is similar to wrestling, for a wrestler to add Judo knowledge is not going to help him very much. But for a wrestler to add boxing knowledge, it will help him a lot.

So for a WC guy to add boxing knowledge, it may help just a little bit. But if a WC guy integrate the wrestling knowledge, it will help much more.

 

[KPM]

I agree to an extent. Now, speaking specifically to my branch of Yuen Family Wing Chun, our emphasis is on grappling first with boxing being a supplement. This changes the "engine" dramatically from a boxing only/first methodology. For us it works and from our perspective makes more logical sense for a lot of movements and positions that seem out of place from a boxing perspective. To me, I see an equal distribution of Ti, Da , Shuai, & Na in Yuen Family Wing Chun. I say that our primary emphasis is on grappling because our strategy and belief is that if Wing Chun is a close quarter method, what is closer than grappling? Our method is designed around the clinch and our punching, kicking, grappling & throwing techniques are based on being grabbed. This means that a lot of the movement and strategy is centered around the clinch and not about trying to close the gap from a distance, grappling on the ground or boxing from a distance as a means to subjugate. While our method has some movement and techniques to address these areas, there are better methods for that, but in the clinch, used right, Wing Chun is king IMO. To me it's a specialty method that shouldn't be forced into a paradigm that it wasn't meant to work in. Hence, me always iterating that its a method of refinement based around the clinch. From here you can go to whatever range you want, ground, kick, punch, throwing but youll need a seperate method that supports the mode. IMO Wing Chun does not effectively address other ranges, it was designed for clinch.

Would love to see more of the Wing Chun that you do! But I think what you are describing does not apply to the Ip Man Wing Chun that the vast majority of Wing Chun people are practicing. Because one of the short-comings of "classical" Ip Man Wing Chun is that when people are fighting/sparring and end up at close range....rather than Chi Sau skills and applications kicking in....it tends to go right to the clinch, for which these "classical" Ip Man guys typically have no answer unless they have trained something else in addition to their Wing Chun. The video in the OP is a perfect example.

 

[APL76]

In another "WC footwork" thread, some people believe that to stand in YZKYM is to train the footwork.


What was said in that thread is that training in the stance lays the basis for and facilitates GOOD footwork and, hence, by that token training the stance trains the footwork (eventually). The path you appear to advocate leads precisely to the kind of “footwork” that aided in this wing chun guy having his back side handed to him.

 

[JowGaWolf]

CMA has a lot of good footworks. IMO, there is no need to look for in the boxing system.

I agree with this. CMA has a lot of good footwork it's just that not everyone trains their footwork beyond the forms. The footwork is already there it's just not utilized. From the little bit that I know of my own system. The footwork is specifically created in a way that fits the striking, kicking, and grappling of that system. Add in boxing footwork and the practitioner will will not be able to perform simple things like foot hooks, sweeps, trips, and other lower techniques.

 

[Nobody Important]

Would love to see more of the Wing Chun that you do! But I think what you are describing does not apply to the Ip Man Wing Chun that the vast majority of Wing Chun people are practicing. Because one of the short-comings of "classical" Ip Man Wing Chun is that when people are fighting/sparring and end up at close range....rather than Chi Sau skills and applications kicking in....it tends to go right to the clinch, for which these "classical" Ip Man guys typically have no answer unless they have trained something else in addition to their Wing Chun. The video in the OP is a perfect example.

Really it isn't anything special, it's just a method looked at and approached from a different perspective. One that can easily be applied to any other branch of Wing Chun. It's about getting away from the belief that Wing Chun is designed solely around an incoming punch and instead based upon a release from a hold via a punch, kick, throw or grapple. Our focus is on clinching range, not purposefully trying to get into it but being found in it. As previously stated there are better methods for striking range, throwing range, kicking range and grappling range. Where these methods may have basic dealings with clinching range, they do not specialize in it, Wing Chun does. On the contrary, Wing Chun, while having basic tools for these other ranges, does not specialize in them, but is good for refining them to the clinching range. From this perspective, while Wing Chun is superb in clinching range, if it is to be used outside of that range it needs to be supplemented. I don't see any issue with this as IMO adding to it takes nothing away from its designed purpose and only enhances it's usefulness. IMO it isn't any different than adding a standup striking strategy to BJJ or a ground kicking strategy to Shuai Jiao. Yet traditionalist frown upon adding anything to the art of Wing Chun because they view it as a complete all around method of fighting. Unfortunately this just isnt the case for most branches of the art, they don't view it as having a very specific range and purpose and refuse to believe that other specialized methods are compatible with it. And that dogmatic belief is complete and utter rubbish.

 

[DanT]

I agree with this. CMA has a lot of good footwork it's just that not everyone trains their footwork beyond the forms. The footwork is already there it's just not utilized. From the little bit that I know of my own system. The footwork is specifically created in a way that fits the striking, kicking, and grappling of that system. Add in boxing footwork and the practitioner will will not be able to perform simple things like foot hooks, sweeps, trips, and other lower techniques.

I agree, as the other systems I practice (Shaolin and Tai Chi) both have extensive footwork patterns. Wing Chun footwork in its forms is fairly limited to a few steps and Circle steps. 95% of Wing Chun practitioners are limited by this as they do not understand that the footwork in the forms is simply a training tool and not a dogmatic limitation on the footwork they can do.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Here are clips that WC system has integrated with the throwing art. The integration work has already be done.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Add in boxing footwork and the practitioner will will not be able to perform simple things like foot hooks, sweeps, trips, and other lower techniques.

Agree! The boxing footwork does not include any "leg skill" such as sweep, scoop, cut, hook, lift, twist, break, block, spring, bite, ...

By adding boxing footwork will drag the WC system further away from the kick, punch, lock, throw, and ground game integration.

Here is an example of "neck wiping foot sweep". If you can put your hand on the back of your opponent's neck, a foot sweep can take him down.

 

[KPM]

John, I don't see how any of the examples you provided are not workable from "boxing footwork." As NI pointed out, the boxing element is not what is primarily functioning at that range. The boxing element is used to close the gap, to maintain distance, etc. You can certainly kick from a boxing structure. There is no reason why a boxing structure would exclude any of the throwing/takedown techniques that you showed.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You can certainly kick from a boxing structure. There is no reason why a boxing structure would exclude any of the throwing/takedown techniques that you showed.

It doesn't seem like it would from looking at it from the outside but it does.
This simple kick in the video is a a good example of it. It shows both the boxing and non boxing structure. All of the Jon Jones kicks are done from a non-boxing structure. This kick isn't effective when it is thrown from a boxing structure. The boxing structure is also a week defense for this type of kick. Had they been in a martial art structure, a simple shuffle back like in Wing Chun would have gotten them out of danger. If they had a bow or horse stance structure then they would actually be able to take the kick head on, without the knee bending backwards.

Sometimes a martial arts stance may look like a boxing stance but it's not and as a result the stance becomes deceptive. And CMAs have a lot of deceptive stances.

 

[Tong Chuang]

I agree with KPM that Ip Man 'Classical Wing Chun' is unprepared for modern MMA or many realistic street encounters.

The WC guy in the Xu Xiaodong fight above is making the 'classical' mistake of keeping his lead leg extended - presenting a near target - a side-body neutral stance is more traditional.

When I trained with the EWTO they did include Anti-grappling / groundwork as part of the curriculum but their footwork / facing strategy was sorely lacking.
One of Ip Chun's top students came off worst vs an MMA guy years ago:

At least some lineages are now including methods to deal with varied attacks, but yes, WC is in a delusional state.
Criticize Sifu Benny Meng all you want but he was ahead of the curve in this aspect.

Why is there not even a method to get up from the ground in any of the WC forms? I was told it is at the end of the Bil Jee form but if you try to use it, it hardly works! (There is a good method in Monkey Kung FU for getting up which I am adding to my personal curriculum).

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You can certainly kick from a boxing structure. There is no reason why a boxing structure would exclude any of the throwing/takedown techniques that you showed.

It's not the structure, it's the footwork.

Boxing has no concept of

- rooting leg, and
- attacking leg.

In order to apply your leg skill (use your leg to attack your opponent's leg), you have to land your rooting leg at the right spot during the right time, so you will have the correct

- distance,
- angle, and
- timing.

When a boxer moves his leg, he will only think about his punches. He will not think about his leg skill. How important is a boxer to consider his opponent weight shifting from one leg to another? It's totally different priority consideration.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I agree with KPM that Ip Man 'Classical Wing Chun' is unprepared for modern MMA or many realistic street encounters.

The WC guy in the Xu Xiaodong fight above is making the 'classical' mistake of keeping his lead leg extended - presenting a near target - a side-body neutral stance is more traditional.

When I trained with the EWTO they did include Anti-grappling / groundwork as part of the curriculum but their footwork / facing strategy was sorely lacking.
One of Ip Chun's top students came off worst vs an MMA guy years ago:

At least some lineages are now including methods to deal with varied attacks, but yes, WC is in a delusional state.
Criticize Sifu Benny Meng all you want but he was ahead of the curve in this aspect.

Why is there not even a method to get up from the ground in any of the WC forms? I was told it is at the end of the Bil Jee form but if you try to use it, it hardly works! (There is a good method in Monkey Kung FU for getting up which I am adding to my personal curriculum).

That was painful to watch. Flailing legs

 

[KPM]

Had they been in a martial art structure, a simple shuffle back like in Wing Chun would have gotten them out of danger. .

You think someone wouldn't do a "simple shuffle back" from a boxing structure????

 

[KPM]

I agree with KPM that Ip Man 'Classical Wing Chun' is unprepared for modern MMA or many realistic street encounters.

The WC guy in the Xu Xiaodong fight above is making the 'classical' mistake of keeping his lead leg extended - presenting a near target - a side-body neutral stance is more traditional.

When I trained with the EWTO they did include Anti-grappling / groundwork as part of the curriculum but their footwork / facing strategy was sorely lacking.
One of Ip Chun's top students came off worst vs an MMA guy years ago:

At least some lineages are now including methods to deal with varied attacks, but yes, WC is in a delusional state.
Criticize Sifu Benny Meng all you want but he was ahead of the curve in this aspect.

Why is there not even a method to get up from the ground in any of the WC forms? I was told it is at the end of the Bil Jee form but if you try to use it, it hardly works! (There is a good method in Monkey Kung FU for getting up which I am adding to my personal curriculum).

We agree! Small detail.....Steve Faulkner was one of Duncan Leung's students, not Ip Chun. And Igor was a beast!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What was said in that thread is that training in the stance lays the basis for and facilitates GOOD footwork and, hence, by that token training the stance trains the footwork (eventually). The path you appear to advocate leads precisely to the kind of “footwork” that aided in this wing chun guy having his back side handed to him.

I don't agree that training stance lays the basis for good footwork. Footwork is not to shift from one stance into another stance (such as to shift from horse stance into bow-arrow stance). Footwork is to move your left foot from point L1 to point L2, and move your right foot from point R1 to point R2. Sometime a footwork can be as simple as to "single leg hop".

Does this "single leg hop" has anything to do with stance training? I don't think so.

A XingYi teacher will ask his students to do 4 miles fast walking daily to develop the footwork foundation. Old saying said, "Even if you can't find any opening to attack on your opponent, you just keep moving, during your moving, soon or later you will find opportunity to attack your opponent."

I also don't understand what you mean "having his back side handed to him".

Here is an example of body spinning. Spin back fist, back kick, ... can all be added in if needed.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Why is there not even a method to get up from the ground in any of the WC forms? I was told it is at the end of the Bil Jee form but if you try to use it, it hardly works! (There is a good method in Monkey Kung FU for getting up which I am adding to my personal curriculum).

During the ground game "full mount", if you are on top "with both knees on the ground", how to borrow your opponent's body structure to "stand up on both feet" is a very important ground skill. IMO, all MA systems should train this. Without this, a ground game will make you to lose mobility big time.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You think someone wouldn't do a "simple shuffle back" from a boxing structure????

I don't think someone would be able to do a simple shuffle to avoid that type specific type of kick to the knee, if they are in a boxing stance. The type of shuffle that would get you out of the range of that kick requires the legs to be in a specific position and for weight to be distributed differently. If you have to put weight on your front leg before the shuffle then you won't be able to get out of the way of the kick.

You have to keep in mind that boxing footwork was developed outside of the context of being kicked. I just showed you a video of MMA fighters who couldn't get out of the way and they were using boxing structure.

Here's another example. You can see him try to shuffle, but his structure is not the one that he needs in order to successfully get out of the way.

edit: I can guaranteed that if kicking was allowed in boxing, that the boxer's stance and boxers method of shuffling would change in a way that will allow it to be more effect against the kicks. I'm not saying that one shuffle is better than the other, but one shuffle was created in the context of avoiding kicks and punches and the other one wasn't. If you are fighting against someone who kicks then you want to have the footwork that was designed to move you away from kicks.