Let's debate lightness

[Tez3]

Now if I recall the original posters native language wasn't English so maybe a misunderstanding of terminology or maybe a radically different approach, but in almost 2 decades in martial arts and 10 in internal arts have not seen anyone use zero force and have someone unbalance.

I've found though in martial arts that using the language of origin of the art when 'naming' techniques or ideas is best. In karate we can say 'mawashigeri' and we all know what it means, likewise with 'kime', bunkai etc. I assume there is a name for this 'no touch' idea ?

 

[Zeny]

I'm a malaysian chinese and when i learn taijiquan we learn in chinese and the explanations are done in chinese. English is not my native tongue. Sometimes it is difficult for me to restate the chinese terms and meanings in precise English.

To ask me to define precisely what i mean is sometimes close to impossible. When i say no force or 1-2 oz of force, actually both are correct. Sometimes if a proper opportunity could be grasped or the opponent's structure is grossly defective, the unbalancing act could be executed with completely zero force. If the opponent has a better structure, sometimes 1-2 ounces need be used. If the opponent has 10 years or more in correct taijiquan practice, heavier techniques like light fajin need be used. It all depends on the situation. How do you expect me to state things completely in black and white? Real life is anything but black and white.

Initially i thought push hands has 10 shades of grey but eventually discovered more than 100 and still new elements are discovered every now and then. When i do push hands i pay attention to many different elements and variables. I even pay attention to how my opponent breath. How many do you pay attention to? Most people simply pay attention to three elements, the opponent's two arms and their centre of gravity. To put it bluntly that is close to newbie standard. Even a child could do it.

When i first started push hands, pushing the centre of gravity was all i know. One day at a seminar i was shown for the first time something called 'chieh jin' (cutting jin). To execute this jin is like cutting a piece of paper at the edges only but never the centre. In push hands terms it means taking down a person by placing force on any part but the centre of gravity. When i saw that demonstrated my jaw dropped. Today this jin is as familiar to me as the air i breath.

My intention is not to teach. If i know something i will tell you that i know it. If i don't know something i don't pretend that i know. On the lightness issue i'm pretty confident of my skill and knowledge of the mechanics so i asked for a debate to listen and enjoy the opposing views. So far fortunately most responses have been pleasant.

Before i commenced this thread i thought most would be curious how it could be done and ask for explanations. However i was very surprised that most responses are 'it cannot be done' without even first asking for an explanation. It is as if they have seen and know everything in taichi and something that is not within their knowledge or understanding cannot be done. It is really difficult to talk to people like that.

 

[oaktree]

You can type the hanzi for no force and light force.

Sometimes it is difficult for me to restate the chinese terms and meanings in precise English.

You are welcome to type the words you are trying to express in Hanzi. Wo de laopo shi zhongguo ren
and no those two girls in my picture are not my wife and her friend that is ah sa and ah gil
Xue sheng also can look at the hanzi and kungfu Wang I believe also knows Hanzi.

When i say no force or 1-2 oz of force, actually both are correct

I think the hanzi you use will be able to clear this up but for english lesson: you can't say you have no money and say you have money.

g act could be executed with completely zero force. If the opponent has a better structure, sometimes 1-2 ounces need be used.

Can you show any video of anyone doing anything you are talking about anyone like Chen Xiaowang or anyone famous who spent their whole life in the art?

Before i commenced this thread i thought most would be curious how it could be done and ask for explanations. However i was very surprised that most responses are 'it cannot be done' without even first asking for an explanation.

Because your defination of no force is like saying you can knock someone down with not physically touching them then you change it to say well I do touch them and use some force.

Its like this: You are saying you can levitate which defys the law of gravity then say well I jump high in the air and jumping in the air for 5 seconds is same as levitating because both are in the air.

It is as if they have seen and know everything in taichi and something that is not within their knowledge or understanding cannot be done. It is really difficult to talk to people like that.

Has nothing at all do to with Taijiquan it has to do with making a claim that defys the laws of motion and your use of a word that may not be in the right context.
So let us see the hanzi you use for no force or what not and then we can understand your meaning because right now it looks like you are saying you can throw your Qi at someone from 50 feet and make him fall down.

 

[Tez3]

I think that there are a lot of misunderstandings going on here, I understand that English is not the OP's first language but what he is stating which is that one can make a person fall over without touching' is impossible. Now perhaps he's that's not what he is saying in his head but when it's written down that is what it says. It then changed to 1- 2oz of pressure/touch would push someone over, again very, very unlikely.

The problem is that something like this actually demands a very precise explanation, if others are to understand it. It needs explaining in 'scientific' terms or it will not be understood. it's difficult I know but it's not that people are assuming they know everything it's that what you have said is actually impossible. If it's not what you mean then I'm afraid and I know it's frustrating for you, you will have to get a concise and accurate translation of what you do mean.

 

[Zeny]

Oaktree, tui ren mei you yong li.

 

[oaktree]

No muscular strength you mean by force?

 

[Zeny]

Yes, no need to expend any strength. Just light touching and leading.

 

[Zeny]

Ok tez3 since more pleasant words are used let me try to explain to the best of my ability. Long post coming up.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Oaktree, tui ren mei you yong li.

Hanzi would be the actual characters. Pinyin, without the tones can be hard to translate, example; type 'ma', what does 'ma' mean? Well which one are you asking about; mā (Mother, 媽), má (Hemp, 麻), mǎ (Horse, 馬), mà (Scold, 罵)

English: Chinese
Pinyin: Zhōngwén (Mandarin Chinese)
Hanzi: 中文

Hanzi and kanji are the Chinese and Japanese pronunciations of the term 漢字 that is used in both languages. It refers to the Chinese characters that both languages make use of in their writing systems. Chinese is written entirely in hanzi, and Japanese makes heavy use of Chinese characters.

Edit: Also, for the record, my reading of Chinese characters is not so good, but my wife's is very good, for both simplified (简) and traditional (傳統) [simplified Chinese for the word traditional is 传统 ]

 

[oaktree]

Yes, no need to expend any strength. Just light touching and leading.

I think I can agree with this, I think a better way to say is "no need to expend any unnecessary strength"

 

[Zeny]

What i'm about to write here will be very difficult to understand. Even i were explaining it to you in person and demonstrating it to you, it is highly likely that you will still not get it. Anyway here goes.

1) most people have a highly simplified view of the human body. A human body is not just one head, two arms and two legs. You really need to look deeper at it.

2) the starting point is standing. Can you stand completely upright or is there a slight lean? When you move, can you maintain the same uprightness or do you start to lean forward?

3) next is sinking directly down, when you sink, do you start to wobble? Can you maintain the same stability when you sink and rise?

4) next is parting legs. When you part the legs, are you able to place 100 pc weight on one leg? When you do this do you wobble? When you sink and rise on one leg do you wobble? When you shift your leg 100 pc to the other leg, do you wobble at any point in the process?

5) next is your upper body, are you relaxed completely? When you hold up your arm does it have any slight tension? When force is applied on you are you able to not resist, and still maintain the touch and not let go? do you have any point in your body where you may unconsciously resist or become tense in certain positions?

6) the above is somewhat simplified but will have to suffice for now. once you have eliminated all the weaknesses in your structure and body as above, the same weaknesses in the opponent's body will become glaring to you.

7) reason is simple, let's imagine you make a lot of effort to stop smoking, and after a few months, you finally succeed. If i now place you in the same room with another smoker, his act of smoking becomes especially noticeable (and probably most annoying) to you.

8) let's imagine now that you are comfortable, relaxed and stable in all of the above movements. This is where the fun starts. When pushing hands, lightly touch the opponent, observe him, ask yourself the following questions, is he standing upright? is he breathing comfortably? Is he balanced and stable? Is there any part that seems or feels hard, tense or immobile?

9) next move your touching arm, observe his movements, does he stick to your arm? how does he react? when he is moving, is he still balanced? does his body move together with the arm? when the body moves is the body still upright?

10) all the above may seem like a lot of work, but once you are used to it it becomes almost instantaneous and second nature. at this juncture simply lead him to make movements which affect his balance or stability. For eg moving foward or backward, rising up or sinking down, turning the waist etc plus any combination of the above. The leading skill does not come naturally and will have to be learnt.

11) a simple example is, if you are erect like this "|" and your opponent is led to lose his stability as well as become like this ">", simply take a step towards him and he will fall.

Bonus edit) most people would wobble when they sink or rise when they have 100 pc weight on one leg. To unbalance him, simply lead him to stand 100 pc on his hind leg (such as executing a roll back), then lead him to rise or sink. At the moment when he moves up or down, apply a light touch at a proper spot. He will lose his balance.

 

[Tez3]

I was fine with everything, understood it, agreed with some even until no 11. Then no 11... simply no, he will not fall over when you walk up to him. There needs to be an action by you to make him fall, a kick, punch, push, hit with a stick, something. He will not fall over all on his own. Are you sure this is what you mean?

 

[oaktree]

Zeny, you describe rudimentary practice of post standing and basic push hands that I teach to beginners. Here's the kids and I playing with rooting and force. My daughter is doing her Baguazhang.

 

[mograph]

Yes, no need to expend any strength. Just light touching and leading.

I think I can agree with this, I think a better way to say is "no need to expend any unnecessary strength"

Yes, this is getting closer. Assuming the OP is interacting with an opponent, then the OP's light-touching-with-leading implies that the opponent supplies the motive force: the force of the falling comes from the opponent. However, the light touch leads the opponent in a direction slightly away from the OP: this is often called leading the opponent into emptiness.

With the right timing and orientation, the OP need not use the same amount of strength/force that an average person might think would be necessary to fell an opponent. Instead, the OP uses a small amount of force to direct the opponent when the opponent is already moving. This feels aikido-ish, no?

Metaphor: the opponent is the engine, the OP's light touch is the rudder?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Something to consider.... When doing push hands against those that are rather experienced (I'm thinking someone like my Yang sifu who has been doing taiji for around 60 years) if you maintain, shall we say, as softer approach. He will, at some point, appear to be "hard, tense and immobile" if you fall for that and attempt to apply anything you are discussing, you will quickly find yourself on the floor. It is a fake, that people use against those they are training with, when they feel they are getting no where. I have used it on occasion with varying degrees of success. Also having a very short moment of being tense can, if applied correctly, up root and throw your opponent off balance

 

[Zeny]

Ah tez3 to explain that will require another set of explanations..... Tomorrow perhaps.

 

[Zeny]

Oaktree, thanks for the nice pic. No offence, if i were that kid, my posture would be very different and there is no way you can maintain your stance or resist me. You cannot take for granted that your root will work against all manner of pushes.

 

[Tez3]

Ah tez3 to explain that will require another set of explanations..... Tomorrow perhaps.

Well no, not really. Either you are doing no touch stuff or you are actually touching your opponent/partner which is the more likely. The the technique will need an explanation but you stated you just step toward them and they fall down, that implies not touching them.

 

[Zeny]

Yes maybe i over simplified as that post has gotten really long. Quick explanation is, if a person breaks his structure and (for eg) sways towards his back, you place your arms which are soft like a pillow at exactly the point that he has to come back to to regain his structure. He won't be able to do so as if he forces his way back, your soft pillow arms would be springy which will cause a bounce effect that bounces him towards the ground. If he maintains his position and refuses to move, you simply walk towards him and the overall effect (not just any spot) caused by your advance will cause him to lose his balance and fall.

 

[mograph]

I was fine with everything, understood it, agreed with some even until no 11. Then no 11... simply no, he will not fall over when you walk up to him. There needs to be an action by you to make him fall, a kick, punch, push, hit with a stick, something. He will not fall over all on his own. Are you sure this is what you mean?

I think the OP means "when you can feel by touch that he is off-balance, take a step toward him with your hands on him and maintaining peng, and he will fall over."