Let's debate lightness

[Tez3]

My daughter is two so not yet, we are doing ballet now
So it true girl scout slumber party are full of pillow fights and tiger beat gossip

Sorry to disappoint you, it's more about how much homework there is, the pressure of exams ( big thing), bullying at school etc. Much more serious than you'd imagine and much more depressing for adults because children don't seem to be able to be children for long.

Martial arts however are something that is so good for children, doesn't matter what style, just training is brilliant for them and of course the rewards are amazing. It's one reason I am so serious about martial arts I want children and young people to have good training, not anything which says it's good but is actually just make believe. it's also the reason I haunt all the other styles sections, I want to know more about everything and to be able to pass it on.

 

[Xue Sheng]

My youngest is in Aikido and the only kid in the class that has asked to learn Ukemi and Randori.... and her sensei started working with her on them

 

[ChenAn]

I just wanted to show that not everyone who does Taijiquan or push hands is doing it with pillows and couches.

This the same person (Mike) who pushed with Chen Bing in MMA gym a while ago.

The only impressive thing about this video is that Mike is totally cooperate to make Chen Ziqiang too looks good.

Sorry to say it. Great unimpressive village stuff.
And yes I wrestled with both Chen Ziqiang and Chen Bing.



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[Zeny]

I've been enjoying the hell out of this thread. Especially now that I'm doing Tai-chi. But with two ears and one mouth, I think I'll listen twice as much as speak.

For me that's the main purpose of this thread. Glad to know that it has served its purpose!

 

[Zeny]

I am curious to see how zenys teacher or a video showing what he is referring to.

My school practises a strict 'no video' policy. But i can imagine that it would be very interesting for those who have never seen it before to see a high level person doing the manner of pushing i have described.

During my first seminar a few years back my jaw literally dropped. My teacher who has 25 years in white crane boxing and judo and later 20 odd years in taichi was dominated completely without any use of force. It looked to me like if he moved he's dead. If he didn't move he's dead too. And my teacher could dominate anyone in my class, many of whom have 8 or more years of consistent taijiquan practice.

The biggest advantage i've gained from the seminar is to see how high a level of skill that a person could reach in taijiquan. The ladder is so high that i told myself i better start climbing hard.

 

[oaktree]

This the same person (Mike) who pushed with Chen Bing in MMA gym a while ago.

The only impressive thing about this video is that Mike is totally cooperate to make Chen Ziqiang too looks good.

Sorry to say it. Great unimpressive village stuff.
And yes I wrestled with both Chen Ziqiang and Chen Bing.



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Chenan you missed the point congratulations. The point WAS to show that not everyone goes light in sparing, push hands and that this is closer to a real fight then light hand push hands.

 

[oaktree]

My school practises a strict 'no video' policy. But i can imagine that it would be very interesting for those who have never seen it before to see a high level person doing the manner of pushing i have described.

During my first seminar a few years back my jaw literally dropped. My teacher who has 25 years in white crane boxing and judo and later 20 odd years in taichi was dominated completely without any use of force. It looked to me like if he moved he's dead. If he didn't move he's dead too. And my teacher could dominate anyone in my class, many of whom have 8 or more years of consistent taijiquan practice.

The biggest advantage i've gained from the seminar is to see how high a level of skill that a person could reach in taijiquan. The ladder is so high that i told myself i better start climbing hard.

this post makes me want to puke rainbows. it's like talking to the choreographer for west side story talking about how real their fight scene is.
I can tell zeny you have never been in a real altercation you are more care bear then grizzly bear.

 

[ChenAn]

Chenan you missed the point congratulations. The point WAS to show that not everyone goes light in sparing, push hands and that this is closer to a real fight then light hand push hands.

I don't miss a real point. Push hands traditionally is not a fighting but training . Chen village reinvented it, and so it became a some sort of wrestling.

Yes it sort of look impressive for taiji practitioner. But it's mainly because that is as close as one can get to real fighting with modern village Chen. Otherwise, they have to learn sanda which doesn't look anything like taiji. And during the match it is hard to tell which one of two fighters is actually representing Chen taiji




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[Zeny]

Let's keep to the point of this thread. This thread is about push hands and not punching or fighting.

 

[mograph]

Didn't porkins get killed

His martial technique was lacking! More push hands, Porkins!

 

[Xue Sheng]

Let's keep to the point of this thread. This thread is about push hands and not punching or fighting.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Let's keep to the point of this thread. This thread is about push hands and not punching or fighting.

However, in a more freestyle push hands (Tung YIng Chieh Lineage) you are training for fighting applications, there can be strikes, there is definitely qinna, up rooting and takedowns. But it is still not fighting. There is a one step push hands in my lineage that is much faster paced (think something like randori in aikido), but even that is not fighting

However, it does not look like the sanda of the 20th generation Chen family, so ChenAn is making a point about push hands and how it seems to be changing, and not for the better, IMO. It is great Martial arts, works quite well actually and it is quicker to learn than actually learning how taiji traditionally works in a fight. But it is still not, IMO, taijiquan, it is mostly sports based Sanda

 

[oaktree]

I don't miss a real point. Push hands traditionally is not a fighting but training . Chen village reinvented it, and so it became a some sort of wrestling.

Yes it sort of look impressive for taiji practitioner. But it's mainly because that is as close as one can get to real fighting with modern village Chen. Otherwise, they have to learn sanda which doesn't look anything like taiji. And during the match it is hard to tell which one of two fighters is actually representing Chen taiji




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Actually Push hands can be a test of someones skill and can be issued as a challange, My teacher has been head butted in push hands among other things so lets not try to paint Push hands as Paddy cake.
I am saying that video shows more closer to actual fighting then playing paddy cake which is kinda of what zeny is saying.
Real fighting is fast, most cases close in and brutal what Zeny is talking about is fluff and BS

 

[mograph]

The technique of expressing/directing force can be relevant to training, competition, push hands, or to fighting.

Can we stick to discussing the relative effectiveness of different methods of directing one's own effort/force or redirecting the opponent's effort/force?

 

[oaktree]

Let me give you where I am coming from: this is my hometown, this is Level he was a gang member who now owes his own gym he got the name Level from what I was told from leveling people to the ground. I have a friend who trains with him.

 

[oaktree]

Can we stick to discussing the relative effectiveness of different methods of directing one's own effort/force or redirecting the opponent's effort/force?

I think the thread is about lightness or no force which clearly turned this thread into BS and realisim in the internal arts.
I am getting kinda of tired of debating it as I see clearly by some posts that some people have either never been in a fight or seen one and to debate with someone about realism vs BS theories is counterproductive so with that said I am done with this BS thread

 

[Zeny]

Oaktree, i know where you are coming from, and yes the fights in that video are brutal, but that video probably is more relevant in an MMA thread than a taijiquan thread don't you think?

Here the discussion is about subtlety, neutralization, effortlessness, balance, sensitivity, strategy, awareness and guile.

i'm pretty sure most of us know the limits of our non-violent push hands training and are not so deluded as to think that just because we know how to do some push hands translates to we know how to fight.

 

[mograph]

I think the thread is about lightness or no force which clearly turned this thread into BS and realisim in the internal arts.
I am getting kinda of tired of debating it as I see clearly by some posts that some people have either never been in a fight or seen one and to debate with someone about realism vs BS theories is counterproductive so with that said I am done with this BS thread

Well, I tried to see if "no force" actually meant "some force, but not a lot, and no excessive tension" -- that's why I recommended getting definitions up front.
I also would like to see distinction between what the force transmitter feels, versus what the force receiver feels.

Yeah. I feel your pain, but is it also possible to use taijiquan methods in a rhetorical sense? To lead someone into emptiness in an argument, as it were?

 

[Xue Sheng]

The technique of expressing/directing force can be relevant to training, competition, push hands, or to fighting.

Can we stick to discussing the relative effectiveness of different methods of directing one's own effort/force or redirecting the opponent's effort/force?

In such hands and in taiji applications 'patience' and 'confidence' are very important. One needs confidence in ones own skill in order to not panic in either situation and patience is very important in the realm of using as little effort as possible and/or being able to redirect the other guy.

An example I have used on MT before, the qinna of my sifu. He has the best I have ever come across, never feel it coming, never know it is going to happen, just all of a sudden I am locked. When asking him how he does this his answer was "you lock yourself" after much questioning on what that means I get the explanation that he waits until I am in the position to be locked, never forces it, just waits and then I am locked. He does not use strength of fajin just locks me. The flip side of this is that to avoid such thing you need to become very aware as to where your body is and what it is doing at all times. There are a lot of similar things in taijiquan and in taiji push hands. small circles come in handy for redirection and neutralizing force for example. You use little effort, appearance of effortless (appearance only) and yet you can neutralize a lot of force in that manor. This is the stuff that gets lost when applying sanda to things

 

[ChenAn]

Actually Push hands can be a test of someones skill and can be issued as a challange, My teacher has been head butted in push hands among other things so lets not try to paint Push hands as Paddy cake.
I am saying that video shows more closer to actual fighting then playing paddy cake which is kinda of what zeny is saying.
Real fighting is fast, most cases close in and brutal what Zeny is talking about is fluff and BS

OK let me put this way. Push hands can be be whatever, but it original purpose to let practitioners to develop skills. Wrestling and any other kind of derivative of push hands are neither free fighting nor traditional training method, it's more like a modern sport.

Traditional taiji fight is about maiming an opponent. It means anything goes. As any martial arts taiji has its own "game". The problem is not many people in the modern world aware or knowledgeable enough to go beyond push hands.