Let's debate lightness

[Zeny]

Oh the dude who demonstrated the 'chieh jin' is the centre brown attired dude in the sing ong laval facebook page.

 

[Xue Sheng]

When practising the unbalancing act, the opponent is standing with his back against a couch. This allows the unbalancing act to be properly trained, as it is probably impossible to even commence training if the opponent is free to take backward steps every time you try to unbalance him. Unbalancing an opponent and causing him to fall over and for his buttocks to hit the floor is more difficult in an open area, but not impossible. Personally for me i just resort to bouncing my partner after i unbalance him during training in an open area (when the two couches in the classroom are occupied by other students).

Fajin is trained in an open area, but there is a mattress placed vertically against the wall. This is so that the partner is not injured when his back slams against the wall. However, as most seasoned students are usually quite sung and soft, it is quite difficult to slam them as well, so most fajin probably just causes them to take 1-2 steps back.

What I thought...thanks

 

[oaktree]

When practising the unbalancing act, the opponent is standing with his back against a couch. This allows the unbalancing act to be properly trained, as it is probably impossible to even commence training if the opponent is free to take backward steps every time you try to unbalance him. Unbalancing an opponent and causing him to fall over and for his buttocks to hit the floor is more difficult in an open area, but not impossible. Personally for me i just resort to bouncing my partner after i unbalance him during training in an open area (when the two couches in the classroom are occupied by other students).

Fajin is trained in an open area, but there is a mattress placed vertically against the wall. This is so that the partner is not injured when his back slams against the wall. However, as most seasoned students are usually quite sung and soft, it is quite difficult to slam them as well, so most fajin probably just causes them to take 1-2 steps back.

Soooooo.......basically You push people back until they trip over a couch

 

[Zeny]

That’s a training method. In open areas you change and adapt. There are merits and demerits in this training method, all of which are quite obvious, so it is not necessary to debate that.

Like I have said, the main aim of the practice is not to ask you to try unbalance an opponent with a light touch during a real fight when the attacker is out to hurt you. It is to practise all the other things that I have said, sensitivity, awareness, leading, etc. And that’s the whole point of push hands, isn’t it.

 

[oaktree]

Push hands can be nothing but an exercise or in the deeper meaning a test of one's skill and a challenge depends on the context.
My sifu has been in push hands and has even received a head butt during it so ya it can be real serious. I am also in the camp that if you can push me back doesn't mean much and even to the ground because I will take you down and we can see if you have any ground work.
In essence let me put it this way, knocking someone back or down does not mean you win the fight .

 

[oaktree]

I just wanted to show that not everyone who does Taijiquan or push hands is doing it with pillows and couches.

 

[Zeny]

I would be the first to admit that i have no skill in ground work.

As for the above video, I believe such training is beneficial in several aspects, but it would be quite difficult to practise subtlety and soft neutralization with that manner of pushing. There is no one method of training that addresses everything.

 

[mograph]

In essence let me put it this way, knocking someone back or down does not mean you win the fight .

But it might give you a chance to run away.

 

[Tez3]

But it might give you a chance to run away.

Not with my knees lol

One of the reasons I've been focusing on groundwork is that I don't have to stand!

 

[oaktree]

I would be the first to admit that i have no skill in ground work.

As for the above video, I believe such training is beneficial in several aspects, but it would be quite difficult to practise subtlety and soft neutralization with that manner of pushing. There is no one method of training that addresses everything.

Well that is closer to how actual fighting is then pushing someone with pillow hands.

But it might give you a chance to run away.

It might or a knife or bullet in your back.

 

[Zeny]

I am extremely proud of my pillow hands. It has taken many years and a lot of hard work and dedication to achieve this. Oh the joy of bouncing friends with a pillow!

 

[mograph]

Well that is closer to how actual fighting is then pushing someone with pillow hands.

It might or a knife or bullet in your back.

As much as debating the nature of fighting on the street would enliven a tai chi thread (mea culpa for my part), we might want to recall good ol' Porkins:

 

[oaktree]

Didn't porkins get killed

 

[oaktree]

I am extremely proud of my pillow hands. It has taken many years and a lot of hard work and dedication to achieve this. Oh the joy of bouncing friends with a pillow!

You sound like a girl scout slumber party

 

[Xue Sheng]

Taiji, from my experience is exactly what old books say, cotton covered steal. It feels soft, heck, my sifu feels very soft and relaxed, but his arms can be very heavy when there on you and he is not using force. He can also explode and knock you over and still stay relaxed and his other applications, even qinna, are relaxed.

It is not a pillow, he is not limp, but yet feels soft to the touch. And it is very hard to find his center to do anything and he does easily move out of the way of force coming at him as well and he is in his 70s. But there is nothing I would ever refer to in his use and application to taiji as limp or pillow.

I will say this much about this conversation, it has given me a different approach to my impending talk with my sifu that is soon to come, and for that I am grateful

 

[Buka]

I just wanted to show that not everyone who does Taijiquan or push hands is doing it with pillows and couches.

That was really cool, thanks for posting that.

I've been enjoying the hell out of this thread. Especially now that I'm doing Tai-chi. But with two ears and one mouth, I think I'll listen twice as much as speak.

 

[Tez3]

You sound like a girl scout slumber party

I take it you have never been on one? Trust me, Girl Guides ( and Brownies) are awesome and a slumber party ( sleepover we call them here, both inaccurate as little sleeping is involved) is something to be truly feared! it takes me two days to get over one night.

In my karate we have 'heavy hands', relaxed strikes that hurt like hell but when we punch though we are relaxed until the strike anyway.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Push hands, this is the son of my Shigong and a good friend of my sifu, the late Tung Hu Ling

This is a great example of what looks magical or qi projection silliness or like the person he is doing push hand with is jumping away and that really is not at all with it is. It is a person, who has spent many years training taiji and can find the other guys center and knows where the other guys root is and knows exactly where, when and how to push. I have felt much of this doing push hands with my sifu and I assure you I did not leap out of the way once, but I have more than once found myself on the floor wondering exactly yow I got there

 

[oaktree]

I take it you have never been on one? Trust me, Girl Guides ( and Brownies) are awesome and a slumber party ( sleepover we call them here, both inaccurate as little sleeping is involved) is something to be truly feared! it takes me two days to get over one night.

In my karate we have 'heavy hands', relaxed strikes that hurt like hell but when we punch though we are relaxed until the strike anyway.

My daughter is two so not yet, we are doing ballet now
So it true girl scout slumber party are full of pillow fights and tiger beat gossip

 

[oaktree]

Push hands, this is the son of my Shigong and a good friend of my sifu, the late Tung Hu Ling

This is a great example of what looks magical or qi projection silliness or like the person he is doing push hand with is jumping away and that really is not at all with it is. It is a person, who has spent many years training taiji and can find the other guys center and knows where the other guys root is and knows exactly where, when and how to push. I have felt much of this doing push hands with my sifu and I assure you I did not leap out of the way once, but I have more than once found myself on the floor wondering exactly yow I got there

Great clip nice display of all the key energies and concepts. And you can definitely see was not limp but peng and relaxed when following and sticking. You have to have some peng in order to fa jin which you can see at the 1:24 Mark. I am curious to see how zenys teacher or a video showing what he is referring to.