Let's debate lightness

[oaktree]

You knew I'd be reading this! The temptation to post something innuendo'ish was killing me.

I have another one something about firm and limp and biscuits and the English
I have heard an urban legend that is how the fig Newton was made

 

[Xue Sheng]

I don't think there is even a limp movement in Xingyiquan, loose maybe but not limp.

Yes

How does one use fa jin with a limp body?

they don't..... but they can do my new style Savasanaquan

I feel all this limp and firm has innuendo here

Well umm.... you know....nope...I'm not gonna go there

Loose until moment of contact. Right, XS?

Exactly, loose, but not limp, and then KERBLAMMO!!!!!

Xingyiquan tends to tighten at the strike, but there are those in Taiji that say you stay loose at the strike, and I have tried it and it does work, you just have to be careful because, or well trained, I think injuring yourself would be pretty easy that way. I have heard the same in xingyiquan, but I have not seen it or tried it.

 

[Zeny]

1) if the whole body is limp, with no force, how does one "push" someone even with an ounce of force?.....Can you define "Push”?

I define “push” as unbalance, to a point that there is no movement you can do to regain your balance. Thus your only option is to fall.

2) It takes muscle contraction to raise your arms and keep them extended...thus not limp....

Perhaps I have not been accurate in my definition, and I apologise for that. When I think of “no force”, I mean the external shape is still there when you do a posture, such as grasping sparrow’s tail, and thus it is not like a rag doll. However, internally it is limp, like a loose guitar string. When pushing, only a light touch (1-2 ounces) is used.

3) When one attempts to define a term, it's good practice to use different words to avoid a tautology.

Sorry, English is not my first language. But thanks for the good tip.

4) May I ask why do you use the word "push"? How about "punch" or "kick"? Could you describe how you will "punch" someone's face by using "lightness and no force”?

You can unbalance (see (1) above) as well as bouncing someone 2-3 steps with no force, but you cannot punch with no force. Pushing is a totally different story. The boxers would laugh if I were to claim that you can punch with no force.

5) If someone hire you to use a slate hammer to knock down a 2 store concrete building, will you be able to complete that task by using "no force”?

You cannot knock down a building or any other balanced immobile object like a statute with “no force”. However, you can do so in the case of a human being, because a human being is alive.

6) The question is, suppose you have acquired the skill to cause someone to fall to the ground with only a light touch (1-2 ounces), would you go back to your usual manner of pushing? Would anyone like to say that this cannot be done and is an impossible skill?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

6) The question is, suppose you have acquired the skill to cause someone to fall to the ground with only a light touch (1-2 ounces), would you go back to your usual manner of pushing? Would anyone like to say that this cannot be done and is an impossible skill?

I have not seen what you have just described (1-2 oz light touch) used on any wrestling mat or Judo mat yet. Are you sure that you and I live on the same planet?

IMO, if you don't use your "leg skill" to disable your opponent's leg/legs mobility at the same time, you will give your opponent too much freedom and mobility. Your "push" won't be effective.

Why don't you control your opponent's leg when you "push" him?

 

[Dirty Dog]

6) The question is, suppose you have acquired the skill to cause someone to fall to the ground with only a light touch (1-2 ounces), would you go back to your usual manner of pushing? Would anyone like to say that this cannot be done and is an impossible skill?

Well, yes, I would like to say exactly that. Assuming the person you are pushing isn't already teetering on the ragged edge of falling, I do not believe you can cause someone to fall to the ground with 1-2 oz of pressure.

 

[Zeny]

Just because one has never seen it done, or does not know how to do it, does not mean it cannot be done.

Let's get two points out of the way first.

Firstly, kung fu is acquired from correct practice over a period of time. The time element is of utmost importance. If i show you a move, and explain the move to you, and immediately you can do the same move, then that move is only a trick and not kung fu. By this very definition it logically follows that if i have kung fu in something but you do not, i can do something that you cannot, although we both have two arms and two legs.

Secondly, the human body is incredibly complex. It cannot be likened to a few cylinders which are balanced within and without joined together. It has yi, awareness, mindfulness, places that are relatively tense, places that are relatively relaxed, positions that are relatively balanced and unbalanced etc. Some are more stable with left leg in front, and some with right leg. Even chi within the body does not travel in a straight or the most direct path. That is why i say a human being can be unbalanced and caused to fall with a light touch, while a statue cannot. I simply need to understand and see the weaknesses in your body, and practise and acquire specific kung fu that allow me to exploit and take advantage of those weaknesses. Thus the slow can defeat the fast, and the old can defeat the young.

Would anyone like to disagree with me on the above points?

 

[Tez3]

If i show you a move, and explain the move to you, and immediately you can do the same move, then that move is only a trick and not kung fu.

Well, that's bollocks for a start. You can teach a technique and if I can do it's a trick? No, sorry that is patent nonsense. You learn and are taught Kung Fu the same way we all learn things, you don't 'acquire' it, it doesn't magically seep in through your body through osmosis. If someone can teach you a technique you can learn it subject to the instruction being competent.

 

[Zeny]

Anyone else agree with Tez3 and wish to say that i am wrong?

 

[Tez3]

Anyone else agree with Tez3 and wish to say that i am wrong?

 

[oaktree]

I think the key here is off balance,then yes if something is off balance then you can effortlessly push something to make it fall.In order to get someone off balance you have to have timing,technique, and yes some strength(enough to push your object off balance) I can agree because in daito ryu aikijujutsu my teacher is able to move in a way that off balances me by right timing and body movement and throw me with just a turn. How ever he is not limp,he is peng and uses only the necessary energy needed to push.
When you say the external form still retains its structure and is loose that is called peng there has to be some muscle contraction to be able to hold your arm up. When there is some contraction then qi can flow when to limp there is collapsed in the channel and blockage. If you relax your wrist to much it bends cutting off the flow to the hands if there is peng then it can flow. To limp to tight are extremes and best avoided.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Just because one has never seen it done, or does not know how to do it, does not mean it cannot be done.

As Tez said... bollocks. If you're ever in Colorado, I would invite you to show me how you can knock me down with 1-2 oz of pressure. It's not going to happen.

I think you'd enjoy training with this guy...

 

[Tez3]

I've seen a supposed 'no touch' KO and it really wasn't. It was the indoctrination/brainwashing of students who believed that when their instructor 'shouted' they would fall down unconscious so of course they did, more or less. It had to be the instructor's students of course, we were told it was too dangerous for anyone else to be the uke. When the student 'fell' down there was much fussing around with weird moves to bring him back again, personally a sound slap around the face to bring him to his common sense would have been better.
I went to another seminar where again they were advertised as going to do the 'no touch' KO but this time Iain Abernethy ( some might not agree with his Bunkai teaching but all do agree he's a very down to earth, practical Karateka and Judoka who doesn't do airy fairy) turned up to teach ( he wasn't advertised but came at the last minute I believe) and they didn't perform it, I doubt it was a coincidence. On a side note though both seminars featured a Sikh group demonstrating quite fearsome weapons and skill, that was brilliant, the no touch KO was a damp squib.

 

[Xue Sheng]

The way Zeny is describing this makes it sound like "Qi magic" or the "Ki master" in the above clip. And I think he is using multiple definitions of the term "kung fu" which is not helping. Kung Fu, by the way means "Hard Work" however it is also accepted as "Chinese martial arts" these days as well.

His use of 'limp' and 'loose guitar string' are just wrong.

As for the Taijiquan saying “use four ounces to deflect one thousand pounds” that is said and it is true, kinda… It is simply physics, everything and everybody has a tipping point and in a person, depending on where you hold your center it can be rather easy to knock someone over if you can find their center. Example, many good Internal Martial arts people tend to think of their center as their Dantian (a point about 3 fingers below your navel) this gives you a low center of gravity and makes you harder to push over or uproot. Now many body builders tend to have their center much higher and there for are a bit easier to push over. And if they respond with strength they, or anyone, is easier to uproot and knock down if you understand the whole “use four ounces to deflect one thousand pounds” things. However do not take that too literally. But all of this takes a connection and if someone is pummeling you with kicks and punches it is not as easy as Zeny seems to want to lead you to believe.

Now it is not magical, it is not mystical powers of Qi it is physics. Do it right and it looks effortless, but it takes a lot of training, patients and frustration to get there.

As for this bit about whole

If i show you a move, and explain the move to you, and immediately you can do the same move, then that move is only a trick and not kung fu.

Well, that is mostly wrong.

There are a plethora of moves and postures and applications in Wushu (the proper term for Chinese marital arts) that you can show someone that can be done immediately, but then that depends on how well the student pays attention, how talented they are at what they are trying to learn, and what experience they bring with them. However talking strictly in the realm of Qi (energy) projection, well then that is a trick. And if you are limp as a wet noodle and go up to someone, touch them and they fall over, then that too is a trick and you can at best claim you have taught your student to fall down on cue.

However, when talking Taijiquan, it can take a very long time to get to a point where you are relaxed enough, patient enough, and enough faith in your ability, to get to the “use four ounces to deflect one thousand pounds” but that does not mean that there is not a student out there that will not get it immediately, if shown properly. But it is very rare to find anyone who picks it up after being shown once

 

[Zeny]

Oaktree is on the right track, but his guess (off balance, timing, technique) is incomplete, probably only 1/3 of the necessary requirements to execute a 2 oz push.

If you are not relying on any force at all to unbalance your opponent, suddenly you are severely handicapped and have no choice but to rely on other means to do it. Over time, you become acutely aware of your opponent's structure, his deficiencies, tendencies, and many other things.

Let me describe what i feel from the first moments when i lightly touch my opponent's arm. From my eyes and sense of touch, i am able to tell:

1) whether he is standing completely upright or is there a slight lean
2) whether he has a root and how strong is the root
3) whether he is fully relaxed, or just partially relaxed, and what exactly are the tense parts
4) how sensitive is his listening jin
5) what is the distribution of weight between his two legs
6) whether he has a tendency to move his body in such a way as to break his own stability
7) etc

If he is standing upright, is stable and has a strong root, i do not push him. Instead, i lead him like a puppet. For eg, if i want him to raise his arm, i extend my hand towards his throat. As he raises his arm to defend the throat, he may also move his waist and/or bend his body slightly and/or make other small movements. He may or may not be conscious of those movements. With every movement that i lead him, i slowly take away his stability, and finally his balance. Without balance, he will fall without even a push.

The above is still not all. There is more. Anyway, tonight in my class i was doing some push hands with a fellow student. After some maneuvering my left palm was on his chest, only lightly touching and not resting on him or applying any force, and my right palm was on his left arm. He stood there motionless, still upright, and closed his eyes, like a statue. I said, 'please move'. He said, 'i can't, i have the feeling that no matter how i move i will fall'. I said, 'if you don't move i can't push'. In that circumstances, if he refused to move, i would be unwilling to push him because it requires me to apply more force than i want to. It is much easier to unbalance a moving person.

Edit: changing the word 'adhere' to 'touch'.

 

[oaktree]

I have heard that using 4ounces to deflect 1,000 pounds was metamorphic and not to be taken literally.

 

[oaktree]

" i slowly take away his stability, and finally his balance. Without balance, he will fall without even a push."
How is this not off balancing someone?
In daito ryu, Taijiquan, Baguazhang we do the same thing you describe however, we still have firmness. I think the wording of softness is what you are saying.

 

[Tez3]

Okay, now there have been those who criticise when I say I can't understand something because they haven't used English that is understandable, BUT when explaining something it is important to use words in the way that people understand them to mean.

i lightly adhere to my opponent's arm.

'Adhere' means to stick fast which is confusing because you cannot do it lightly, do you mean touch?

Instead, i lead him like a puppet.

You don't 'lead' a puppet you control it.

For eg, if i want him to raise his arm, i extend my hand towards his throat. As he raises his arm to defend the throat, he may also move his waist and/or bend his body slightly and/or make other small movements. He may or may not be conscious of those movements. With every movement that i lead him, i slowly take away his stability, and finally his balance. Without balance, he will fall without even a push.

He may do the movements you want him to but there's a very good chance he won't, he may not defend the throat he may attack you instead. If you are 'slowly' taking away his stability and you think you have all the time in the world to play with someone then you are very sadly mistaken. If you think that by merely ( and slowly) taking away his balance you can then just push him over I seriously think you are deluded.
Judoka work on taking people off balance, it's a tried and tested tactic which works but it's not done slowly and you can't just push them over with a finger. In other martial arts the idea of making your opponent go off balance is known and used but we don't believe in magic, just hard work and practice, practice, practice.

 

[Zeny]

On slowness, it is not necessary to respond to every movement or attack with speed. During non-competitive 'classroom' push hands, it is not necessary to cause a person to fall immediately upon contact.

Tonight we have a new student, about my age and size, some martial background (he declined to disclose more), pretty strong arms, close to no root, lots of useless flowery movements, and who was keen to try out some push hands.

After falling several times, he was amazed that he could be taken down without any force. To prevent further falls he started using more and more force while i maintained lightness and max 2 oz. i didn't manage to push him after that, but he remarked how tired he was and how much energy he had to expend to defend against my 2 oz pushes. If i had used slightly more force, maybe 10 oz, there would be no difficulty in pushing him but then i wouldn't be able to improve my skills.

 

[oaktree]

Hi Tez,
I'll try to explain this from an internal arts perspective.
"Adhere' means to stick fast which is confusing because you cannot do it lightly, do you mean touch?"
When an internal stylist touches arms to another person we tend to touch softly as in very little muscle relaxed, we are trying to be sensitive to the movement of the opponent body structure, and direction of the force or energy, so if he is pushing to the right we are sticking and following and then redirecting is a possible method of dealing with force.
However, there does have to be a degree of force (4ounces is the metaphor) in order to move the 1,000 pounds. No force means no 4 ounces results in the force to keep moving at the momentum. It is the application to stick, follow and apply the correct amount of force at the right time to off balance a person which is why people who are lethargic can not redirect force because they can't even lift their arm up.
"You don't 'lead' a puppet you control it."
I was at the puppet museum and those puppets were on me pretty good. Elmo is actually pretty short.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Just because one has never seen it done, or does not know how to do it, does not mean it cannot be done. ... Would anyone like to disagree with me on the above points?

If your teacher tells you that if you do ....., after so many years, you should be able to jump 20 feet high, will you want to see that teacher be able to do it himself? There are something that you just can't do it no matter how much time that you have spent in your training.