legendary fight between masters...
- Thread starter TSDTexan
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RTKDCMB
Senior Master
Do you mean groin level?
RTKDCMB
Senior Master
Kata, Hyung or, since we are talking about Kung Fu here, Forms is one of the best ways to develop technique.
OP
TSDTexan
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I answered that yesterday at 7:29 pm on this thread.
But in addition to that... I like to start conversations here at MT. Most of my threads have high post and response between users here. Who wants to be on a dead board?
I like lively even sported discussions.
Now, if you think this content is pointless... Why are you on this thread?
OK. So I have answered your question. Please tell me who sent Funakoshi, as you have stated this position.
Also, the question about "good character karate' that has no fighting Karate in it, still is waiting for an answer.
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Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
OK, I just read through this mess....and as to the "fight between masters" that has been posted form China between a white crane guy and the Wu Taijiquan guy (who was the head of the Wu family at the time)
I said this way back in post #8
Problem you have with this is there are people still alive that were there and my sifu was there with his sifu (Tung Ying Chieh), who is the guy at the beginning doing the form, he was not one of the fighters)
A challenge was made, but no one understood why the older Wu took it up and not the younger.
It was hyped and billed much like the Ali Fraser fights. Many tickets were sold too. However the majority of the audience, including the other CMA people there thought it was rather pathetic, there was much booing and calls for money back.
Even the other CMA people there, at that time, thought it was bad, so if anyone still wants to throw it out there as some generalized example of how bad masters are then you simply have no clue as to what you are talking about and simply looking to style bash on a national level. And if you are throwing it out there as an example of a good fight then you too have no idea what you are talking about and the people that were there, watching, spectators and martial artists alike, would not agree with you.
Sorry to burst balloons here, but that is what happened.
I said this way back in post #8
Problem you have with this is there are people still alive that were there and my sifu was there with his sifu (Tung Ying Chieh), who is the guy at the beginning doing the form, he was not one of the fighters)
A challenge was made, but no one understood why the older Wu took it up and not the younger.
It was hyped and billed much like the Ali Fraser fights. Many tickets were sold too. However the majority of the audience, including the other CMA people there thought it was rather pathetic, there was much booing and calls for money back.
Even the other CMA people there, at that time, thought it was bad, so if anyone still wants to throw it out there as some generalized example of how bad masters are then you simply have no clue as to what you are talking about and simply looking to style bash on a national level. And if you are throwing it out there as an example of a good fight then you too have no idea what you are talking about and the people that were there, watching, spectators and martial artists alike, would not agree with you.
Sorry to burst balloons here, but that is what happened.
I think what we are seeing is trial by hearsay and trial by video. Bringing up accounts of fights that may or may not have happened just to show supposedly how one karate master is better than another is pointless. It brings nothing to any debate when one side is determined to be correct regardless and won't engage with those who clearly know more such as actual practitioners of CMA and people who know their karate history.
I know next to nothing about CMAs other than having done a small amount of JKD which I found difficult after years of karate, entirely down to me I'll add not the 'fault' of JKD and the excellent instructors. I would hesitate to post any video up of CMA's even if I thought the 'fighting' was bad, it's not for me to criticise another's style because in my ignorance I could miss a lot, the intent for a start, it's not unbelievable that a video could be made to show how not to do it, if the explanation is in a language we don't understand we can assume all the wrong things.
The desire for debate would be shown by welcoming opposite views, engaging in conversation and not style bashing, to start a thread style bashing is an indication of wanting a combative and discordant thread.
To express the view that drawing conclusions from such videos, like those on the first page of this thread, is poor reasoning.
And with that done I shall depart. I don't keep hold of every source I read so you won't find the spirited debate you want with me.
As I understand things, Funakoshi was sent to promote karate as an extention of Itosu's work introducing karate into schools. Karate was introduced into schools as a mirror to the drilling (marching in time) done in European schools. Itosu, supported by Funakoshi wanted to use karate to build a strong disciplined Japanese youth to power the imperial war machine in the years to come.
This is why the art was "simplified" from what GF learned as a boy. Why kata was a mass exercise so different to what Motobu had known.
The whole point of Funakoshi going over to Japan was to sell this militarisation tool. You can't sell.to an audience you don't understand so it's foolish to think you can sell an art in Koryu form when all native arts have had to be revised. Karate would never have been accepted.
And with that I'm out. I can't remember where I got most of this stuff. Let it be a direction of study as I won't be trying to argue.
Indeed, you are right. Everything I have read about Funakoshi agrees on one thing, that he was a man of peace, wasn't a braggart and believed it was better to run away than fight yet he was more able to defend himself than most. To suggest he was a weakling, that he agreed to a duel which he then lost badly ( the only mention I can find of this is that quoted on here, I can't find any other reference but there are references to his dojo being 'invaded'. I'm not a historian of Japanese martial arts nor of the culture so others may find these references where I couldn't) is to malign someone who was and is revered for his peaceful nature as well as his abilities in karate. I think it's a shame that, for the sake of appearing 'knowledgeable' someone must sneer at a master for supposedly 'losing' a fight he may well not have had is necessary.
I won't say I'm 'out' because it's been made quite obvious ( wink wink nudge nudge) that I'm being 'ignored' but I'm flattered so cheers for that.
I do remember reading about Funakoshi being distraught because his students had been killed in the world, he felt the loss badly, this I understand having lost two of my students in a war. For a man of peace this must have been a double blow.
The videos speak for themselves. Are you saying the videos are not accurate? Then what are we suppose to go on? Your word? LOL. Look again at Chucks video and then the two "Masters". Chuck kicks ***. And the other two....well pathetic.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
I have an eye witness account, he was there, how accurate do you want to be about the CMA fight clip
Yes, yes it was, as EVERYONE who was there thought as well.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
The question then becomes, what do you take from the video? Do you see that as an endictment of Chinese martial arts as a whole? Or of those two systems in particular? Or of those two individuals? Or is this simply one bad example?
Even the best proponent can have a bad showing. Or one might have a bad showing and go on to develop better skills later.
So how do you view this? What context do you give for your judgment, and do you make any room for possibilities?
After all, one could cherry-pick a video of someone being defeated, someone who otherwise had a winning record, and just focus on the loss and make the claim, "wow, this guy is such a loser, he sucks".
But there is context to everything and If that is forgotten, then nonsense rules the day.
There's a long tradition in martial arts of passing on tales of decisive matches won by the founders or prominent exponents of the art.
I've learned to mostly discount these stories unless there is video evidence or substantial third party testimony. Often there is no evidence that the fight in question ever took place. Other times the self-serving bias of perception and memory mean that the participants end up telling very different accounts of what happened. Even if the fight actually did take place exactly according to the story, it doesn't necessarily mean much in terms of the intended message that soandso was the better fighter or suchandsuch was the better art. In my own personal experience, I have had matches where I beat opponents who were objectively much better than I was. It just so happened that on that particular day I got lucky or they were off their game. Drawing conclusions based on a single match is a bad idea. Drawing conclusions based on biased recollections of a single match that may or may not have taken place years ago is a very bad idea.
I've learned to mostly discount these stories unless there is video evidence or substantial third party testimony. Often there is no evidence that the fight in question ever took place. Other times the self-serving bias of perception and memory mean that the participants end up telling very different accounts of what happened. Even if the fight actually did take place exactly according to the story, it doesn't necessarily mean much in terms of the intended message that soandso was the better fighter or suchandsuch was the better art. In my own personal experience, I have had matches where I beat opponents who were objectively much better than I was. It just so happened that on that particular day I got lucky or they were off their game. Drawing conclusions based on a single match is a bad idea. Drawing conclusions based on biased recollections of a single match that may or may not have taken place years ago is a very bad idea.
Hanzou
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No one was saying that that abysmal display was indicative of all Kung Fu everywhere in the world. The issue only bubbled over when someone made the dumb comment that that abysmal display looked like an MMA fight on a technical level.
I'm glad to see that not everyone has blinders on.
I'm glad to see that not everyone has blinders on.
F
I've always respected your viewpoint in the past.
FC, I think you are over thinking my comments. I Judged the video on it's own merit. I don't judge CMA or anything else by this video. This was just bad fighting. Perhaps they both are great fighters and Masters of their art and had a bad day, but that does not make me think what I saw was impressive, just the opposite, Please feel free to justify the poor fighting abilities of these two men in this video. I am open minded. But I saw what I saw. I'm interested in reading your response but I will only read and will not respond. This is my last post on Martialtalk.
I've always respected your viewpoint in the past.
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Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Sorry to hear that Tames...best of luck to you
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
I'm not trying to justify their poor performance, because it's true, it was poor. I was just curious as to what you may or may not read from it. Seems to me some people are quick to pass a blanket judgment based on limited examples. If that isn't your way, you are better for it.
Koshiki
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Not to drag this up again, and I realize my Karate history is next to non-existent, but wasn't Funakoshi Gichin somewhat of a small fellah for the day, and wasn't Motubu Choki known for being several inches taller than most of his contemporaries, and heavily muscled to boot?
OP
TSDTexan
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Both were old dudes, Choki was fat... I mean pleasantly plump at about 5 foot 3 inches.
Choki Motobu lifted a stone weight about 10 heaviver than Funakoshi to sholder height daily.
And here is Funakoshi... who was 5 foot even. So they were about 3 inches different in height. And a considerable strength difference as well.
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