legendary fight between masters...

TSDTexan said:
As far as I am aware, this duel didn't happen in Funakoshi's dojo, while a class was in session.

Also, we both posted on the red light district training at the same time, and yes, this had a big impact on Motobu as both a teacher (different understanding because of practical application learned in the "doing" vs theory driven education) and as a fighter.
I doubt he would have stepped into a fighting ring with a Russian boxer if he hasn't done his red light training.
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I would hesitate to call picking fights training.

It was Motobu himself who in an interview said he barged in on a class. He didn't mention menacing GF with his fist though.

I disagree with Mr Noble. From reading his work I think GF was fine with kumite, but that he didn't feel most of his students were ready. I think GF was against turning karate into a sport.

And again, all this leads to a big "So what?!"
Because Motobu was a better fighter it doesn't make the same true for his students. The art was passed down via kata so the proficiency of any one teacher is meaningless unless you are talking about their teaching skills.
 
Also I have to say that Funakoshi was not sent to teach fighting karate. He was sent to teach karate of good character.

Cultural revolution had happened and do, not jutsu was the order of the day. It speaks to Funakoshi's beliefs that he always entreated us to seek the real art within the kata and practice accordingly.
 
DaveB said:
I would hesitate to call picking fights training.

It was Motobu himself who in an interview said he barged in on a class. He didn't mention menacing GF with his fist though.

I disagree with Mr Noble. From reading his work I think GF was fine with kumite, but that he didn't feel most of his students were ready. I think GF was against turning karate into a sport.

And again, all this leads to a big "So what?!"
Because Motobu was a better fighter it doesn't make the same true for his students. The art was passed down via kata so the proficiency of any one teacher is meaningless unless you are talking about their teaching skills.
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I would like to see the source of the quote that says explicitly says he interrupted Funakoshi's class in progress. I have seen a fair number of supposed quotes that insinuate that it was Funakoshi's class that was interrupted but actually use (inserted name here, but not actually present in the text) to convey that notion.

I have been looking for about four years. I haven't found it yet.

GF seemed fine with scripted Kumite ala 1steps, which is a different animal than the free kumite.

Two different training methods, different outcomes when world's collide.

Motobu in his younger years saw a use for practical testing in a real world setting that impacted both his teaching and his fighting.
If you know something works because it was tested, and validated in real fights, you will not likely approach your teaching from a purely academic view.

You hesitate to call picking fights training.
I have no such hesitation, the very nature of challenge fighting is an excellent source of training. It shows you, your combative weaknesses that should be addressed. Finding an area that has semi-regular streetfighting and engaging a willing opponent has good value as a training aid.

The amount of confidence in techniques that are validated firsthand, have a bearing in what your teaching others. I know this works, as opposed to "it is said...that this works".
 
DaveB said:
Also I have to say that Funakoshi was not sent to teach fighting karate. He was sent to teach karate of good character.

Cultural revolution had happened and do, not jutsu was the order of the day. It speaks to Funakoshi's beliefs that he always entreated us to seek the real art within the kata and practice accordingly.
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OK... "who" sent Funakoshi?
second question about what has been posted.
What is this "karate of good character" that you mention?
Funakoshi didn't exactly model or was a paragon of such as you seem to think.
I love Funakoshi... but like everyone who doesn't practice what they preach.. take em with a grain of salt.

The ending of Samurai Culture didn't have a lot of bearing on the whole "Jutsu" vs "Do" within "Te". "Te" whether it be the earlier types of Tou-Te or later named Kara-Te of the 1920s-1940s were not derived from the Samurai martial arts. Quite the opposite, Te was partly developed as an unarmed self defense martial art by Okinawans against Japanese armed Samurai. The "Do" vs "Jutsu" divide didn't really exist in the same way as it did within the Koryu of the japanese mainland, in arts like Kenjutsu or Kyujutsu that would become Kendo or Kyudo.

This is a false dichotomy, if you bring it to "Te" which never was a caste warrior' s art that needed to be "civilized" or toned down for a new era.

eh.. Which leads to a "so what" of my own.
Obviously there is something here of notice otherwise we wouldn't be chatting about it.
 
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TSDTexan said:
You hesitate to call picking fights training.
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For many reasons it's not training, it's merely fighting. Who is he picking fights with? Drunks, 'bouncers', the hard men or just anyone who annoys him? Is he jumping them or calling them out, is it a fair fight or one where he could lose, so no, not training but fighting.
 
Xue Sheng said:
So what were saying here is this thread will turn out to be a legendary fight between posters
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Or "not" fight, as there are some whom I am avoiding any discussions, or debate with. A certain modicum of decorum will maintained, even if silence is my only direct answer.

"Wink"
 
TSDTexan said:
I would like to see the source of the quote that says explicitly says he interrupted Funakoshi's class in progress. I have seen a fair number of supposed quotes that insinuate that it was Funakoshi's class that was interrupted but actually use (inserted name here, but not actually present in the text) to convey that notion..
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"When I first came to Tokyo, there was another Okinawan [Funakoshi] who was teaching Karate there quite actively. When in Okinawa I hadnā€™t even heard of his name! Upon guidance of another Okinawan, I went to the place he was teaching youngsters, where he was running his mouth, bragging. Upon seeing this, I grabbed his hand, took up a position of kake-kumite and said, ā€˜what will you do?'ā€
This quote from Motobu was written in ā€œRyukyu Kenpo Karate-jutsu Tatsujin Motobu Choki Seidenā€ by Nakata Mizuhiko (translated by Joe Swift) and as you already see, their first meeting was everything but peaceful.
How did the meeting end?
The quote continues:
ā€œHe [Funakoshi] was hesitant and I thought to punch him would be too much, so I threw him with kote-gaeshi (a wrist throw common to jujutsu and aikido) at which time he fell to the ground with a large thud. He got up, his face red and said ā€˜once more.ā€™ And again I threw him with kote-gaeshi. He did not relent and asked for another bout, so he was thrown the same way for a third time.ā€


I believe Patrick McCarthy might be a source for a proper translation of the book in question.
 
TSDTexan said:
Or "not" fight, as there are some whom I am avoiding any discussions, or debate with. A certain modicum of decorum will maintained, even if silence is my only direct answer.

"Wink"
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Oh dear he's thrown his teddy bear out of the cot again. A modicum of decorum eh, that means a monologue by him. Oh well, it ended badly last time, we'll wait and see shall we.
 
I happen to own several versions of Motobu's Ryukyu Kenpo Karate-jutsu as well as his other work. In the passage, the name Funakoshi is not present, it is supplied within parentheses to let the reader know who the translator thinks is being referred to.

There are other translators who have not added the name Funakoshi to the text. And I do hold Patrick McCarthy in highest esteem, as both artist and martial arts historian.

The fact that translators are not in agreement here and the use of parenthetical brackets around Funakoshi's name does a lot damage to the case that this event is exactly what is being passed off as Funakoshi being tossed here.

It could have been a different instructor with his students.
But let's say it was in fact, Funakoshi...
Now, of course there are different versions of this altercation. Hereā€™s another alleged take on the exact same story, found in ā€œKaratedo wo Kataru Genzai no Budo Teki Shitenā€ written by Konishi Yasuhiro:

ā€œI heard that Motobu met Funakoshi and they talked about how various attacks could be effectively received, when Motobu asked him to show him a block against a punch. When Funakoshi blocked the technique Motobu seized his hand and threw him about three and a half meters. Iā€™m not sure if this is true or not but I do know that since that time Funakoshi hated Motobu very much, referring to him as an illiterate.ā€

As these events were not caught on film, and we only have written accounts... Some first hand, some second hand. I tend to not be as skeptical as some others here at MT. The problem is which one of several versions of an event is the real one?

The fact that there are several views of the same event that are not identical tells me an event did take place, and that it is not mere fabricated oral mythology.

My objection to DaveB was multipart. One part was that I had not found evidence that led me to believe the fight happened in Funakoshi's dojo, in front of his students, while class was in session.

I dont think he interrupted a class in session. Even if it was true that he fought Funakoshi in front of his students at Funakoshi's dojo.
 
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TSDTexan said:
The fact that there are several views of the same event that are not identical tells me an event did take place, and that it is not mere fabricated oral mythology.
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Obviously I don't think you are experienced in how rumour and conjecture are formed. There are countless examples of incidents that have never happened or happened differently from the common view, just look at Snopes. Throughout history there have been events that people will swear happened or happened they way they think it did.



TSDTexan said:
My objection to DaveB was multipart. One part was that I had not found evidence that led me to believe the fight happened in Funakoshi's dojo, in front of his students, while class was in session.
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It's usual to object to what someone has written not to object to the poster.
 
TSDTexan said:
I happen to own several versions of Motobu's Ryukyu Kenpo Karate-jutsu as well as his other work. In the passage, the name Funakoshi is not present, it is supplied within parentheses to let the reader know who the translator thinks is being referred to.

There are other translators who have not added the name Funakoshi to the text. And I do hold Patrick McCarthy in highest esteem, as both artist and martial arts historian.

The fact that translators are not in agreement here and the use of parenthetical brackets around Funakoshi's name does a lot damage to the case that this event is exactly what is being passed off as Funakoshi being tossed here.

It could have been a different instructor with his students.
But let's say it was in fact, Funakoshi...
Now, of course there are different versions of this altercation. Hereā€™s another alleged take on the exact same story, found in ā€œKaratedo wo Kataru Genzai no Budo Teki Shitenā€ written by Konishi Yasuhiro:

ā€œI heard that Motobu met Funakoshi and they talked about how various attacks could be effectively received, when Motobu asked him to show him a block against a punch. When Funakoshi blocked the technique Motobu seized his hand and threw him about three and a half meters. Iā€™m not sure if this is true or not but I do know that since that time Funakoshi hated Motobu very much, referring to him as an illiterate.ā€

As these events were not caught on film, and we only have written accounts... Some first hand, some second hand. I tend to not be as skeptical as some others here at MT. The problem is which one of several versions of an event is the real one?

The fact that there are several views of the same event that are not identical tells me an event did take place, and that it is not mere fabricated oral mythology.

My objection to DaveB was multipart. One part was that I had not found evidence that led me to believe the fight happened in Funakoshi's dojo, in front of his students, while class was in session.

I dont think he interrupted a class in session. Even if it was true that he fought Funakoshi in front of his students at Funakoshi's dojo.
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Motobu.webp
 
TSDTexan said:
Wow... Having seen both of these before...and yet I never connected the two like this before. Hanzou... Looking at this... I gotta say you are right. Old masters do punch like Chuck Liddell.
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I suppose you missed the part where the Kung fu "master" performed the windmill. The same thing children do when they get into fights.

On a more serious note, there's a difference between punching with power and direction, and swinging wildly trying to hit anything you can.
 
Hanzou said:
I suppose you missed the part where the Kung fu "master" performed the windmill. The same thing children do when they get into fights.
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Not even close again you show your lack of knowledge on the topic
On a more serious note, there's a difference between punching with power and direction, and swinging wildly trying to hit anything you can.
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neither clip showed the latter
 
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