legendary fight between masters...

[Koshiki]

Do we know how big Funakoshi was?
Just out of curiosity.

 

[TSDTexan]

Do we know how big Funakoshi was?
Just out of curiosity.

GF was around 5 feet tall (152.5cm) and weighed around 120 pounds (8 stone 8 pounds)

 

[Koshiki]

Ah. I had the impression that there was a large size/weight difference between them.

 

[TSDTexan]

Ah. I had the impression that there was a large size/weight difference between them.

There may have been a weight and strength mismatch.

Choki lifted a stone that was 10 pounds heavier than GF to his sholders daily.

 

[Koshiki]

There may have been a weight and strength mismatch.

Choki lifted a stone that was 10 pounds heavier than GF to his sholders daily.

Ouch. Poor Funakoshi. I was just wondering, because I've always had this impression of Funakoshi as a pretty little guy, and Motobu as a someone often described as a "beast," as a "giant", as an "ox." Hyperbole, I'm sure, but still...

Anyway, my first thought was, "Bantamweight versus Welterwieght, Welterwight wins!" and my reaction was, "yeah, so?"

I mean, a 5 foot, 120 pound version of Funakoshi would likely loose to a 5'3", 150 pound version of Funakoshi more often than not, no?

 

[TSDTexan]

Ouch. Poor Funakoshi. I was just wondering, because I've always had this impression of Funakoshi as a pretty little guy, and Motobu as a someone often described as a "beast," as a "giant", as an "ox." Hyperbole, I'm sure, but still...

Anyway, my first thought was, "Bantamweight versus Welterwieght, Welterwight wins!" and my reaction was, "yeah, so?"

I mean, a 5 foot, 120 pound version of Funakoshi would likely loose to a 5'3", 150 pound version of Funakoshi more often than not, no?

The will of a man is not to be overlooked.
Nor should speed or skill.

Right after arriving in the US, Bruce Lee mixed it up with a retired semi-pro boxer. The boxer looked at the fight from weight classes. And he got whuuped by Lee.

Speaking of dogs and dogfighting there is an old quote that is on point.
It is not the size of the dog in the fight....
It is the size of the fight in the dog.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

The will of a man is not to be overlooked.
Nor should speed or skill.

Yep. But if will, speed, and skill are all comparable then size and strength and easily be the determining factors.

 

[TSDTexan]

Yep. But if will, speed, and skill are all comparable then size and strength and easily be the determining factors.

And I agree.

I think Choki had a speed, and an agility advantage.
Also, Choki had jettisoned most kata to and specialized in one. Which he did about 500 times a day.

Specialist > Generalist.

Its not how much is known, its how well you know and can apply what you know.

In retrospect it was a serious mismatch.

 

[Koshiki]

Specialist > Generalist.

Soooometimes, but there are limits. For example, the famed "thousand kicks once versus one kick thousands of times" matchup: Sure, one kick trained to perfection is great, but I think Mr. One-kick might have a rough time competing against someone with, say, three kicks, two strikes, and some basic grappling trained to a lesser degree of perfection...

 

[TSDTexan]

Soooometimes, but there are limits. For example, the famed "thousand kicks once versus one kick thousands of times" matchup: Sure, one kick trained to perfection is great, but I think Mr. One-kick might have a rough time competing against someone with, say, three kicks, two strikes, and some basic grappling trained to a lesser degree of perfection...

Depends on how fast and with how much power he can deliver. It is hard to not telegraph a kick.
That being said... Bruce KOd a number of his student's with his non telegraphing punch.
The one that clocked in around five hundredths of a second (0.05 second).

Seeing as visual accuity and cognative recognition of a visual cue happens at two hundredths of a second, you now have 3 hundredths of a second to correctly guess the punch target, and intercept the incoming punch.
Block 1 of 4 gates, 2 of 4 if you are lucky.

And only if you see a non telegraphing punch.

Reaction Time Components...........

When a person responds to something he hears, sees or feels, the total reaction time can be broken down into a sequence of components.

1 Mental Processing Time

This is the time it takes for the responder to perceive that a signal has occurred and to decide upon a response. For example, it is the time required for a driver to detect that a pedestrian is walking across the roadway directly ahead and to decide that the brakes should be applied. Mental processing time is itself a composite of four substages:

• Sensation: the time it takes to detect the sensory input from an object. ("There is a shape in the road.") All things being equal, reaction time decreases with greater signal intensity (brightness, contrast, size, loudness, etc.), foveal viewing, and better visibility conditions. Best reaction times are also faster for auditory signals than for visual ones. This stage likely does not result in conscious awareness.

• Perception/recognition: the time needed to recognize the meaning of the sensation. ("The shape is a person.") This requires the application of information from memory to interpret the sensory input. In some cases, "automatic response," this stage is very fast. In others, "controlled response," it may take considerable time. In general, novel input slows response, as does low signal probability, uncertainty (signal location, time or form), and surprise.

• Situational awareness: the time needed to recognize and interpret the scene, extract its meaning and possibly extrapolate into the future. For example, once a driver recognizes a pedestrian in the road, and combines that percept with knowledge of his own speed and distance, then he realizes what is happening and what will happen next - the car is heading toward the pedestrian and will possibly result in a collision unless action is taken. As with perception/recognition, novelty slows this mental processing stage. Selection of the wrong memory schema (mental constructed models) result in misinterpretation.

• Response selection and programming: the time necessary to decide which if any response to make and to mentally program the movement. ("I should steer left instead of braking.") Response selection slows under choice reaction time when there are multiple possible signals. Conversely, practice decreases the required time.

These four stages are usually lumped together as "perception time," a misnomer since response selection and some aspects of situational awareness are decision, not perception.

2. Movement Time

Once a response is selected, the responder must perform the required muscle movement. For example, it takes time to lift the foot off the accelerator pedal, move it laterally to the brake and then to depress the pedal.

Several factors affect movement times. In general, more complex movements require longer movement times while practice lowers movement times.

Last but not least... the Yerkes-Dodson Law says that high emotional arousal, which may be created by an emergency, speeds gross motor movements but impairs fine detailed movements.

So... the first clue you just got hit was that you just got your bell rung.
Now if you cannot prevent an incoming blow you have to put something in the way. But moving hands up only opens lower gates...


My money is on the man who has thrown so many punches of one specific non telegraphic type.... they can only be estimated, over the guy who knows 5 to 10.

 

[drop bear]

Yep. But if will, speed, and skill are all comparable then size and strength and easily be the determining factors.

Mabye the smaller guy had less speed skill and will.

 

[Tez3]

Depends on how fast and with how much power he can deliver. It is hard to not telegraph a kick.
That being said... Bruce KOd a number of his student's with his non telegraphing punch.
The one that clocked in around five hundredths of a second (0.05 second).

Seeing as visual accuity and cognative recognition of a visual cue happens at two hundredths of a second, you now have 3 hundredths of a second to correctly guess the punch target, and intercept the incoming punch.
Block 1 of 4 gates, 2 of 4 if you are lucky.

And only if you see a non telegraphing punch.

Reaction Time Components...........

When a person responds to something he hears, sees or feels, the total reaction time can be broken down into a sequence of components.

1 Mental Processing Time

This is the time it takes for the responder to perceive that a signal has occurred and to decide upon a response. For example, it is the time required for a driver to detect that a pedestrian is walking across the roadway directly ahead and to decide that the brakes should be applied. Mental processing time is itself a composite of four substages:

• Sensation: the time it takes to detect the sensory input from an object. ("There is a shape in the road.") All things being equal, reaction time decreases with greater signal intensity (brightness, contrast, size, loudness, etc.), foveal viewing, and better visibility conditions. Best reaction times are also faster for auditory signals than for visual ones. This stage likely does not result in conscious awareness.

• Perception/recognition: the time needed to recognize the meaning of the sensation. ("The shape is a person.") This requires the application of information from memory to interpret the sensory input. In some cases, "automatic response," this stage is very fast. In others, "controlled response," it may take considerable time. In general, novel input slows response, as does low signal probability, uncertainty (signal location, time or form), and surprise.

• Situational awareness: the time needed to recognize and interpret the scene, extract its meaning and possibly extrapolate into the future. For example, once a driver recognizes a pedestrian in the road, and combines that percept with knowledge of his own speed and distance, then he realizes what is happening and what will happen next - the car is heading toward the pedestrian and will possibly result in a collision unless action is taken. As with perception/recognition, novelty slows this mental processing stage. Selection of the wrong memory schema (mental constructed models) result in misinterpretation.

• Response selection and programming: the time necessary to decide which if any response to make and to mentally program the movement. ("I should steer left instead of braking.") Response selection slows under choice reaction time when there are multiple possible signals. Conversely, practice decreases the required time.

These four stages are usually lumped together as "perception time," a misnomer since response selection and some aspects of situational awareness are decision, not perception.

2. Movement Time

Once a response is selected, the responder must perform the required muscle movement. For example, it takes time to lift the foot off the accelerator pedal, move it laterally to the brake and then to depress the pedal.

Several factors affect movement times. In general, more complex movements require longer movement times while practice lowers movement times.

Last but not least... the Yerkes-Dodson Law says that high emotional arousal, which may be created by an emergency, speeds gross motor movements but impairs fine detailed movements.

So... the first clue you just got hit was that you just got your bell rung.
Now if you cannot prevent an incoming blow you have to put something in the way. But moving hands up only opens lower gates...


My money is on the man who has thrown so many punches of one specific non telegraphic type.... they can only be estimated, over the guy who knows 5 to 10.

I think it would have been polite to cite the person who wrote the above I have highlighted in blue. It comes from here

Visual Expert Human Factors: Driver Reaction Time

it's to do with motoring, there is also a warning at the start of the article.

 

[TSDTexan]

Mabye the smaller guy had less speed skill and will.

That could very well have been the case.
There are some who make a case that G. Funakoshi was the most formally educated of the okinaiwan karate community and with a high level ability of the Japanese language he was sent to Japan to spread karate.

But that doesn't mean he was highly rated as a fighter in terms of ability. Far from it.

 

[drop bear]

That could very well have been the case.
There are some who make a case that G. Funakoshi was the most formally educated of the okinaiwan karate community and with a high level ability of the Japanese language he was sent to Japan to spread karate.

But that doesn't mean he was highly rated as a fighter in terms of ability. Far from it.

Yeah. In any event it is good to see them get in and have a go.