Learning to take strikes

[Tez3]

With all due respect, this was not a training, drill or exercise, it was a first day initiation, I agree with teaching students to deal with strikes, be it blocking, parrying or absorbing, but not as an initiation, before any training. Or an initiation with little skill, which is quite evident. I agree, nowdays some kids are pussies, and need to learn, but there is a time and a place, yes they need to be shown, they can do more be more, but I dont think taking a beating, when they have no obvious skill, is poor.

Exactly.
The purpose of initiations is to enable bullies to hurt others with the approval of those who think an initiation is some sort of rite of passage and therefore a 'good thing'.

 

[drop bear]

I hope it is true that the kid in the video had to consent to the pummeling but I do not see that as apples to apples when compared to a tournament. There are plethora of rules and exponentially more people viewing the tournament event. In almost all cases it simply would not be as intense or injury prone.

There are a ton of questions about the video I agree. The biggest one for me is whether that is really a kid or a smaller framed adult. To me, there is value in it. It is just hard for most people to watch.

No. It really is Apple's to Apple's. It is just a concept that tastes bad so people rejected it.

Punching people is ok. So long as all these personal conditions are met. That they can fight back. Or that they are over 16 or if it is not to the head or a whole bunch of conditions that we have pulled out of thin air basically.

I mean a 15 year old you can't punch but a 16 year old you can? So therefore moral high ground?

It is rationalisation at its worst.

 

[drop bear]

Exactly.
The purpose of initiations is to enable bullies to hurt others with the approval of those who think an initiation is some sort of rite of passage and therefore a 'good thing'.

Rubbish.

 

[Tez3]

Rubbish.

Hardly an 'initiation', it's a 100 man kumite basically.

 

[dvcochran]

Punching people is ok. So long as all these personal conditions are met. That they can fight back.

The kid could not punch back. How in the world is that apples to apples to any tournament? Nothing at all like any tournament/match I have ever been in, including PKA back in the 80's/90's.
I have to call BS on this one.

 

[dvcochran]

With all due respect, this was not a training, drill or exercise, it was a first day initiation, I agree with teaching students to deal with strikes, be it blocking, parrying or absorbing, but not as an initiation, before any training. Or an initiation with little skill, which is quite evident. I agree, nowdays some kids are pussies, and need to learn, but there is a time and a place, yes they need to be shown, they can do more be more, but I dont think taking a beating, when they have no obvious skill, is poor.

I agree. But I do not live wherever this took place and fully understand social conventions are very different in other places. I do not like it at all but I cannot judge until I Fully know the story.
As far as initiations:
in·i·ti·a·tion
/iˌniSHēˈāSH(ə)n/
noun
noun: initiation; plural noun: initiations

1. 1.
   the action of admitting someone into a secret or obscure society or group, typically with a ritual.
   "rituals of initiation"
   
   
2. the action of beginning something.

By definition, it could easily be taken out of context.

 

[Tez3]

By definition, it could easily be taken out of context.

Yep two adults bashing up a young person who is not hitting back can always be taken out of context.

I mean it's character building, right, to stand there and be beaten up.

 

[drop bear]

Hardly an 'initiation', it's a 100 man kumite basically.

Yeah. Just an excuse to bully one guy when he is tired. Dressed up like a rite of passage.

 

[drop bear]

The kid could not punch back. How in the world is that apples to apples to any tournament? Nothing at all like any tournament/match I have ever been in, including PKA back in the 80's/90's.
I have to call BS on this one.

It is safer not to hit back.

That is the whole point of covering up.

I mean ok. Instead of that what if they just put him against the two adults?

Then that would be ok right?

 

[dvcochran]

It is safer not to hit back.

That is the whole point of covering up.

I mean ok. Instead of that what if they just put him against the two adults?

Then that would be ok right?[/
I don't know it would be better or not. He would not be covered up all the time and prone to a downing blow.

 

[Gweilo]

It is safer not to hit back.

That is the whole point of covering up.

I mean ok. Instead of that what if they just put him against the two adults?

Then that would be ok right?

The problem with your mentality on this issue is, you are training adolescents the same as adults, The rational part of a teen's brain isn't fully developed and won't be until age 25 or so. In fact, recent research has found that adult and teen brains work differently. Adults think with the prefrontal cortex, the brain's rational part. ... Teens process information with the amygdala.
So whilst I agree, they need to deal with strikes, and the fears that are associated with strikes, it needs to be gradual, not in at the deepend. Whilst I understand this incident took place in a part of the world, that does not have the capacity to understand this logic, or indeed hide behind tradition, to justify child abuse, is all the more reason to expose such things.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

No. It really is Apple's to Apple's. It is just a concept that tastes bad so people rejected it.

Punching people is ok. So long as all these personal conditions are met. That they can fight back. Or that they are over 16 or if it is not to the head or a whole bunch of conditions that we have pulled out of thin air basically.

I mean a 15 year old you can't punch but a 16 year old you can? So therefore moral high ground?

It is rationalisation at its worst.

Not really. I agree with the distinction between a 15 year old and 16 year old. But training someone to fight back is very different than training someone to take abuse. And it's not just a moral high ground, there is a distinct difference between the two. Which is what they are doing in the video that started this discussion.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So did the people in the video.

That’s dark, right there.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I've had a lot of students over the years, can't even guesstimate the number. The first time they sparred, any kind of sparring, they sparred with me. Every single one of them. Including the kids, especially the kids. NONE of them had to, but we always made sparring the most fun thing anyone in the dojo ever did.

And they all sparred contact. Controlled contact. Learning control was paramount in our system, as was contact. And to me, to what we do, "control" isn't just a matter of safety, control is one of the keys to learning how to really hit with power. Or not.

But I still stand with my opinion of that OP video. And I still would like to get one of those instructors in that video against a wall. Or have them get me against the wall. Just for sheets and giggles.

Agreed. Everyone I teach gets sparring very early, starting with me. And it starts with contact the very first time - light first, then the option of going harder as they progress.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Exactly.
The purpose of initiations is to enable bullies to hurt others with the approval of those who think an initiation is some sort of rite of passage and therefore a 'good thing'.

Some initiations, sure. Not all.

 

[Tez3]

Some initiations, sure. Not all.

All the ones I've ever investigated were though. There's a reason they are illegal in the military.

 

[dvcochran]

The problem with your mentality on this issue is, you are training adolescents the same as adults, The rational part of a teen's brain isn't fully developed and won't be until age 25 or so. In fact, recent research has found that adult and teen brains work differently. Adults think with the prefrontal cortex, the brain's rational part. ... Teens process information with the amygdala.
So whilst I agree, they need to deal with strikes, and the fears that are associated with strikes, it needs to be gradual, not in at the deepend. Whilst I understand this incident took place in a part of the world, that does not have the capacity to understand this logic, or indeed hide behind tradition, to justify child abuse, is all the more reason to expose such things.

So, it is ok to train adults in the manner in you opinion?
To be fair, some here on the forum have argued what constitutes abuse. It can be surmised that it is different for every culture. Even the meaning of a given word is very different from location to location.
Another vein to consider; how do we know this person (kid?) has not been training for years and this is in essence a 'graduation' ? To see if one can cut the next level of training?
I still agree it is hard to look at but there are just too many unknowns for me to make a hard opinion.

 

[Gweilo]

So, it is ok to train adults in the manner in you opinion?
To be fair, some here on the forum have argued what constitutes abuse. It can be surmised that it is different for every culture. Even the meaning of a given word is very different from location to location.
Another vein to consider; how do we know this person (kid?) has not been training for years and this is in essence a 'graduation' ? To see if one can cut the next level of training?
I still agree it is hard to look at but there are just too many unknowns for me to make a hard opinion.

The reason we know its not a graduation, is the title of the video.
Kenneths innitiation into the kepap brotherhood. Secondly the owner of said gym, has taken the video down from youtube, and his website, and threatened to beat/ban/sue anyone that talks bad about it, I did leave my email address and called him something that ryhmes with runt, but as of yet not heard anything.

 

[Tez3]

The reason we know its not a graduation, is the title of the video.
Kenneths innitiation into the kepap brotherhood. Secondly the owner of said gym, has taken the video down from youtube, and his website, and threatened to beat/ban/sue anyone that talks bad about it, I did leave my email address and called him something that ryhmes with runt, but as of yet not heard anything.

I quite like twunt, a nice mixture of insults.

I agree totally with you, sometimes despite the culture, despite what people think about 'respecting' other's traditions, wrong is wrong and there's actually no arguing with it. I've actually heard people try to justify allowing certain cultures to practice FGM, using the arguments as given by DVCochran, but wrong is wrong and abuse is abuse, there are no ifs and buts.

 

[geezer]

All the ones I've ever investigated were though. There's a reason they are illegal in the military.

Tez, I think that for many of us there's a huge difference between the broader term initiation and the term hazing which is widely used (at least here in the States) for a physically or mentally abusive initiation ritual. We often use the term initiation to describe a variety of rites of passage or induction. They may be legitimately grueling as any difficult test may be, or they may be purely ceremonial. Hazing, on the other hand, is universally condemned nowdays.

Sometimes what is abusive can be a matter of perspective...

As a high school teacher I have had to attend graduation ceremonies every May for the last 25 years. Some people love them. But it's getting to the point that I'd rather get punched in the face and be done with it than have to sit through another endless batch of commencement addresses.