Learning to take strikes

[Gerry Seymour]

I say that because the Bar Mitzvah is the 'thing' not the celebration, that's a modern add on and really just the fluff as opposed to the point which the reaching of the age 12/13 as that's the important thing. Something that may not have made a lot of sense in modern times when children usually survive but is looking much more understandable with this virus, although it's not so dangerous to most young people.


All a bit academic now I'm afraid, all the synagogues have closed for the foreseeable future so no parties. My husband and I ( both in at risk group) are in what they are calling 'social distancing', just going out when necessary. I'm a social person, if I can't train, take Guides, go to the cinema etc I'm not going to be happy lol. They have even closed the seating areas in McDs, drive through only! I have plenty to occupy myself, can go for walks (but sometimes I want to chat to people not sheep) and of course there's debating on here to keep my mind alert, so while some may think this is about semantics it's more than that, it's helping to beat the isolation!!! So thank you. I mean it

I do understand (at a superficial level, admittedly) that the Bar/Bat Mitzvah is the important thing, and the celebration is just a celebration of what's important. That's why I included the reference to black belt. Because the work to achieve that rank is the achievement, not the belt, itself. Nor, of course, the initiation that may be involved at one side or the other of that rank (like the Kyokushin kumite).

 

[Tez3]

Because the work to achieve that rank is the achievement, not the belt, itself.

There's no work actually needed to be Bar Mitzvah though, the tradition of having 'Bar Mitzvah lessons' etc is a relatively new one, perhaps brought in to make it seem even more important and probably in line with the thought that children need examinations as they do in school so you can check they can read and write. For a good many Jewish children the Bar/Bat Mitzvah is actually quite a miserable time, it's the adults who want to do the celebrating, teenage boys especially do not want all the fuss.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There's no work actually needed to be Bar Mitzvah though, the tradition of having 'Bar Mitzvah lessons' etc is a relatively new one, perhaps brought in to make it seem even more important and probably in line with the thought that children need examinations as they do in school so you can check they can read and write. For a good many Jewish children the Bar/Bat Mitzvah is actually quite a miserable time, it's the adults who want to do the celebrating, teenage boys especially do not want all the fuss.

I understand that. I didn't say anything about work needed to be Bar Mitzvah. The sentence you quoted was about black belt rank.

 

[Tez3]

I understand that. I didn't say anything about work needed to be Bar Mitzvah. The sentence you quoted was about black belt rank.

Oh is that why you mentioned 'black belt'? Well of course I know it was about black belts, which is why I said they don't actually have to work for Bar Mitzvah unlike the black belt where work is involved, you don't get to celebrate the belt if you haven't passed the grading do you? so not a very good analogy really. I'd say a white belt was probably more of a good analogy, you get it to keep your Gi jacket closed and can celebrate your very first belt if you want. ( though for some reason there are places that make you grade for your white belt )

 

[Yokozuna514]

Nor, of course, the initiation that may be involved at one side or the other of that rank (like the Kyokushin kumite).

And this means........

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Oh is that why you mentioned 'black belt'? Well of course I know it was about black belts, which is why I said they don't actually have to work for Bar Mitzvah unlike the black belt where work is involved, you don't get to celebrate the belt if you haven't passed the grading do you? so not a very good analogy really. I'd say a white belt was probably more of a good analogy, you get it to keep your Gi jacket closed and can celebrate your very first belt if you want. ( though for some reason there are places that make you grade for your white belt )

I wasn't using BB as an analogy for Bar Mitzvah. I was using both to discuss rituals and celebrations that fit the defintition of "initiation".

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And this means........

I'm not sure I understand your question.

 

[drop bear]

 

[Yokozuna514]

I was not sure what you were referring to when you said, "Nor, of course, the initiation that may be involved at one side or the other of that rank (like the Kyokushin kumite)."

 

[Tez3]

I wasn't using BB as an analogy for Bar Mitzvah. I was using both to discuss rituals and celebrations that fit the defintition of "initiation".

I don't think Bar Mitvah fits the definition of initiation though, as I've said before it happens whether you celebrate or ignore it. The 'work' involved isn't necessary to gain it, just like your birthday it happens anyway. Would your hair growing grey be considered an initiation into old age?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I was not sure what you were referring to when you said, "Nor, of course, the initiation that may be involved at one side or the other of that rank (like the Kyokushin kumite)."

Meaning that the initiation isn't the point. The training and achievement are the point. The initiation is just a social thing that celebrates or marks the achievement.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't think Bar Mitvah fits the definition of initiation though, as I've said before it happens whether you celebrate or ignore it. The 'work' involved isn't necessary to gain it, just like your birthday it happens anyway. Would your hair growing grey be considered an initiation into old age?

You keep going in circles. I've said several times that the celebration is the initiation, not the Bar Mitzvah. And then you come back and say something about the Bar Mitzvah not being an initiation. To which, on at least two occasions, I've said I agree.

 

[Yokozuna514]

Meaning that the initiation isn't the point. The training and achievement are the point. The initiation is just a social thing that celebrates or marks the achievement.

Ok, well I appreciate the response. Not sure what it has to do with Kyokushin Kumite in terms of initiation or achievement in the context of your discussion but I do not want to derail your conversation with Tez with a segue into this.

 

[Tez3]

ut I do not want to derail your conversation with Tez with a segue into this.

Oh I would go for it, he is just trying to wind me up anyway.

 

[Tez3]

You keep going in circles. I've said several times that the celebration is the initiation, not the Bar Mitzvah. And then you come back and say something about the Bar Mitzvah not being an initiation. To which, on at least two occasions, I've said I agree.

That would be because I consider you wrong, the celebration isn't the initiation. It's not for the Bar Mitzvah it's for the parents, the family and the friends, the caterers, the venue, the waiting staff, the wine merchant, the shops where the presents are brought etc etc, it's a commercial venture not an initiation. Parties aren't initiations, they are parties.

 

[skribs]

Oh I would go for it, he is just trying to wind me up anyway.

@gpseymour is the absolute last person on this forum I would expect to try and wind anyone up.

 

[drop bear]

Ok, well I appreciate the response. Not sure what it has to do with Kyokushin Kumite in terms of initiation or achievement in the context of your discussion but I do not want to derail your conversation with Tez with a segue into this.

A ritual that admits you in to a group.

Now that kumite is a ritual. And once you have done it you join the very exclusive group of people who have done a kumitie.

Now it is not done to harass or demean but to uplift that person. To push them to be a better person basically.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Oh I would go for it, he is just trying to wind me up anyway.

Im entirely confused how you drew that conclusion. You keep seeming to think I’m saying something I’ve said three times I’m not saying.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That would be because I consider you wrong, the celebration isn't the initiation. It's not for the Bar Mitzvah it's for the parents, the family and the friends, the caterers, the venue, the waiting staff, the wine merchant, the shops where the presents are brought etc etc, it's a commercial venture not an initiation. Parties aren't initiations, they are parties.

Initiations can be parties.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

A ritual that admits you in to a group.

Now that kumite is a ritual. And once you have done it you join the very exclusive group of people who have done a kumitie.

Now it is not done to harass or demean but to uplift that person. To push them to be a better person basically.

This, exactly.