Learning to take strikes

[drop bear]

So children who spar/compete is also child abuse as they cannot consent.

Probably in the same ethical realm as dog fighting.

I assume we are making the distinction that what we do as part of training is ok because we do it.

 

[Tez3]

So children who spar/compete is also child abuse as they cannot consent.

We always ask the children if they want to spar and they are well aware of what sparring is. They don't have to, no one makes them or makes them feel bad if they don't. We control the sparring too, no head shots.

 

[Buka]

Added by @mcdojolife Instagram post Here we go again: 1) Video from @kapapacademysg YouTube channel 2) Their caption “Kenneth’s initiation into the Kapap brotherhood” 3) excerpt - “If you look at mma, how is that any different?” 4) The studio saying they are pursuing legal action against people who are speaking out against the video 5) Teo Yew Chye - Founder of this academy Don’t worry we will post a funny martial arts video later but stuff like this is ridiculous to me and the public should know what they are getting into before they join this academy. @killcliff @goldbjj - Picuki.com

Thanks, DB.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I tried to watch the OP’s video again but couldn’t get it to work. But I remember it.

To clarify my opinion, if it needs clarification....

I’ve only taught and trained in contact Martial Arts. All the kids I’ve trained were trained in contact Martial Arts. There was no such thing as stopping a punch an an inch from the face and having it considered any kind of scoring technique, it was considered a miss.

But there are safe ways to do this. What I remember from the OP’s video was not what I consider safe, proper or helpful training.

I’m wondering about the two folks punching that kid. I’m wondering how beneficial they would find it if I set them up with the same opportunity - having somebody twice their weight and five times their skill level smacking the crap out of them while against a wall.

Sure would like to interview them afterwards to get their thoughts.

You hit the nail on the head IMO. It's fine to train people and let them get punched in the face. It's even fine to have someone against a wall while having someone else throw punches that the person has to block/avoid and counter. Even with teens (not sure I'd do it younger personally).

The issue is when that person is two instructors that are bigger and likely much stronger going full throttle against someone who either doesn't know enough to know how to block/avoid/counter, or was told not to do so. That's what is happening here, and why it's an issue.

 

[O'Malley]

You hit the nail on the head IMO.

So did the people in the video.

 

[drop bear]

You hit the nail on the head IMO. It's fine to train people and let them get punched in the face. It's even fine to have someone against a wall while having someone else throw punches that the person has to block/avoid and counter. Even with teens (not sure I'd do it younger personally).

The issue is when that person is two instructors that are bigger and likely much stronger going full throttle against someone who either doesn't know enough to know how to block/avoid/counter, or was told not to do so. That's what is happening here, and why it's an issue.

So wait. That would make this not the terrible child abusing comment that people have been screaming about for the last 20 pages.

"In terms of hitting people, the only two/three issues would be: Age,quantity and power. for quantity, by it being captioned as a inituation tradtion, it seems to be a one off thing they do. Cant comment on if they got any injuries or severty of them afterwards."

And why people should read and understand posts before they turn the social justice warrior up to 11.

 

[Buka]

I've had a lot of students over the years, can't even guesstimate the number. The first time they sparred, any kind of sparring, they sparred with me. Every single one of them. Including the kids, especially the kids. NONE of them had to, but we always made sparring the most fun thing anyone in the dojo ever did.

And they all sparred contact. Controlled contact. Learning control was paramount in our system, as was contact. And to me, to what we do, "control" isn't just a matter of safety, control is one of the keys to learning how to really hit with power. Or not.

But I still stand with my opinion of that OP video. And I still would like to get one of those instructors in that video against a wall. Or have them get me against the wall. Just for sheets and giggles.

 

[wab25]

And I still would like to get one of those instructors in that video against a wall. Or have them get me against the wall. Just for sheets and giggles.

If you ever do manage to arrange that, will you be so kind as to post a video of it? You know... for the giggles

 

[Tez3]

people have been screaming about for the last 20 pages.

And why people should read and understand posts before they turn the social justice warrior up to 11.

That you think people have been screaming says more about you than the other posters. I'm not sure how you cope when people are actually screaming.

I assume you think you are the only one to understand posts, even above those writing the posts?

 

[drop bear]

That you think people have been screaming says more about you than the other posters. I'm not sure how you cope when people are actually screaming.

I assume you think you are the only one to understand posts, even above those writing the posts?

The post itself was pretty clear. You just read what you wanted to read as opposed to what was written.

Which is you are right and any other stance is child abuse.

The issue is the goal posts can be moved around pretty easily in this discussion.

So for example say I suggest head contact for under 17s is child abuse.

And some sort of social justice rant attached. With exactly the same arguments and links to cte exposure.

We have drawn our line in the sand based on nothing other than defending our own methods.

And the tragic part is that every just assumed it is a universal line. Which is incredibly arrogant.

 

[drop bear]

Oh and Danaher is anti teaching submissions to under 12s

Danaher: Kids Under 12 Should Not Be Taught Submissions

 

[skribs]

I've had a lot of students over the years, can't even guesstimate the number. The first time they sparred, any kind of sparring, they sparred with me. Every single one of them.

At my dojang, we do non-contact sparring for white and yellow belts. We only give them sparring gear at purple belt. I don't know who the rule is more for:

1. The white belts who have no coordination on how to kick and it would be entirely unfair to put them into a contact situation. They're more likely to hurt their toes or your knees or end up falling over than to get any meaningful sparring.
2. The white belts who figure out how to kick very quick, but how to properly aim and control the power are two separate things. They're more likely to hit someone too hard or kick someone in the face (no head contact until black belt).

Students usually spend at least 4-8 months doing non-contact sparring before they get their sparring gear. Then we usually do partner drills.

It's rare that a student needs an instructor to do non-contact sparring with them (aside from an odd number of people in class). They're usually the 4-year-olds that are still learning how to follow commands that will get matched up with an instructor and a target. Those students may take over a year (or even longer) to get to purple belt, and by the time they get they're sparring gear they've learned how it works.

 

[Tez3]

Which is you are right and any other stance is child abuse.

Actually no, quite specifically the video in the OP showed a young person being hit by two adults and not defending. The young person was clearly a child. That's child abuse. it's also poor training.
If you are what you train as the saying goes what are you if you stand there and passively get hit?

So for example say I suggest head contact for under 17s is child abuse.

And some sort of social justice rant attached. With exactly the same arguments and links to cte exposure.

Who exactly are you accusing of this 'social justice rant', I see strongly held opinions, yours included, I don't see rants or screaming. I see people who feel the video in the OP is child abuse, as the child wasn't defending himself or sparring it is hard to defend what is being done to him and that is the operative phrase...what is done to him.
Discussions about what age should sparring start, full or soft contact head shots or not etc are interesting opinions but not pertinent to the OP's video.

We have drawn our line in the sand based on nothing other than defending our own methods.

Or we draw the line according to the laws in our respective countries as well as drawing the line accorded to informed scientific research. I think in your arrogance you believe that only you are correct or are just trying to wind people up.

 

[Gweilo]

I don't think taking strikes is a skill, if you want to spar of compete then first prepare your mind to adjust to light strikes with full protective gear, only if your opponent lands a strike, then over time gradually increase to medium contact (if that is what you want),. Body conditioning will make you more ressilant, I don't mean iron body training, there are other ways.

Hello Claudiaus

 

[Gweilo]

Having read the posts here, it is alarming the thought that with some of the comments, there sre some that should clearly not train children.
It does not matter if the child gives consent, the Adult/instructors have a duty of care, its their responsibility to train effectivley and safely, and not doing so is an abuse of their authority. I have trained, and done LIGHT contact with children, their ability to have no real fear, or an inaccurate assumption of what they are capable of, is obvious to an intellegant human adult.

 

[dvcochran]

So children who spar/compete is also child abuse as they cannot consent.

Probably in the same ethical realm as dog fighting.

I assume we are making the distinction that what we do as part of training is ok because we do it.

I hope it is true that the kid in the video had to consent to the pummeling but I do not see that as apples to apples when compared to a tournament. There are plethora of rules and exponentially more people viewing the tournament event. In almost all cases it simply would not be as intense or injury prone.

There are a ton of questions about the video I agree. The biggest one for me is whether that is really a kid or a smaller framed adult. To me, there is value in it. It is just hard for most people to watch.

 

[Tez3]

To me, there is value in it. It is just hard for most people to watch.

I don't find it hard to watch I find it annoying that someone thinks that's a valid training technique. People like to parrot that you are what you train, it's certainly true to a large extent though. If you only ever spar just touching lightly then that's how you will react when you actually need to punch/kick hard. If you only ever punch and kick into air how on earth will you react when you are punched with the need to punch back and likewise if you do not defend yourself when someone is hitting you will not react quickly enough when you need to defend yourself. It's a quite pointless exercise, you're only teaching the person to be still while you punch them in the head which is only a good thing if you plan on doing to them a lot, saves chasing them around the dojo. It you want them to be able to fight/defend themselves then teach them to at the very least duck and dive, block and punch back.

 

[dvcochran]

I don't find it hard to watch I find it annoying that someone thinks that's a valid training technique. People like to parrot that you are what you train, it's certainly true to a large extent though. If you only ever spar just touching lightly then that's how you will react when you actually need to punch/kick hard. If you only ever punch and kick into air how on earth will you react when you are punched with the need to punch back and likewise if you do not defend yourself when someone is hitting you will not react quickly enough when you need to defend yourself. It's a quite pointless exercise, you're only teaching the person to be still while you punch them in the head which is only a good thing if you plan on doing to them a lot, saves chasing them around the dojo. It you want them to be able to fight/defend themselves then teach them to at the very least duck and dive, block and punch back.

I don't think you understand the purpose of the exercise at all. It is a test of endurance, pain threshold, and finding your willingness to dig deep. We had similar drills in my Olympic training and I was not the only one doing it.

This will never be seen/found in people who train for the average level of MA or fitness. It certainly is not for everyone, I would say only for a select few.

I agree with what you say but it all lies in the median. Not where this guy was training. Do I condone it? Like I said, it that was a kid certainly now. If it is a consensual conditioning exercise I do not have trouble with it.

 

[Tez3]

I don't think you understand the purpose of the exercise at all. It is a test of endurance, pain threshold, and finding your willingness to dig deep.

Rubbish, there's plenty of ways to test all of those other than standing and getting your head punched. In fact standing there getting your head punched is the height of stupidity. I can tell you categorically that my martial arts students would howl with laughter if I suggested they stand there while being punched and trust me these are people who know more about endurance, pain threshold and digging deep than most people.
Going around an assault course, yomping across the Falklands Islands to a fight, patrolling in Afghan, going for Selection, are all tests of the above not standing there like a mark one idiot.

This will never be seen/found in people who train for the average level of MA or fitness. It certainly is not for everyone, I would say only for a select few.

Oh there's a lot of us who all that can be found in, not all martial artists either. Congratulations on Olympic training but you'll find there's many and I can think of a couple on here whose training has been even more stringent.

 

[Gweilo]

I don't think you understand the purpose of the exercise at all. It is a test of endurance, pain threshold, and finding your willingness to dig deep. We had similar drills in my Olympic training and I was not the only one doing it.

This will never be seen/found in people who train for the average level of MA or fitness. It certainly is not for everyone, I would say only for a select few.

I agree with what you say but it all lies in the median. Not where this guy was training. Do I condone it? Like I said, it that was a kid certainly now. If it is a consensual conditioning exercise I do not have trouble with it.

With all due respect, this was not a training, drill or exercise, it was a first day initiation, I agree with teaching students to deal with strikes, be it blocking, parrying or absorbing, but not as an initiation, before any training. Or an initiation with little skill, which is quite evident. I agree, nowdays some kids are pussies, and need to learn, but there is a time and a place, yes they need to be shown, they can do more be more, but I dont think taking a beating, when they have no obvious skill, is poor.