Leading USA Hapkido Leaders

[kwanjang]

...
Kwanjang Rudy, please call me Kevin, being called by a title :lol: :lol: has always weirded me out.

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

Hello Kevin:
Thank you for your courtesey.... I am much the same and I also like to have folks use my first name. It just seems a bit more personal on a forum like this; however, I just don't want to offend anyone who prefers titles. Being somewhat new on the block here, I am not yet familiar with the rules

While I truly appreciate seeing my name mentioned on this very honorable list, I am quite sure that I am not on the same page as most of the folks mentioned there. After suffering a severe back injury in 1983, I just consider myself a coach who still likes to do whatever he can 'cause I simply love the arts (and I love to share and learn). My white belt is a permanent part of my gear bag, and I wear it as proud as any belt I've ever earned.

This thread bring me to another thought. As I look over the list, I see that a number of us live in a reasonable distance from one another. Would it not be a great thing to make some efforts to get together once a year to get on the mat and share with one another. I enjoy my annual trip to MS, and I'd love to go to Florida to work with Hal, but that is a long way for me.

Something in the Mid West would be great for quite a number of people. We have an NKMAA annual in Ohio, and perhaps we can get together there (or elsewhere) to enjoy each others' company. Thoughts????

 

[Kodanjaclay]

Bruce,

I know Chris. He is a talented Hapkidoin. The man trains arguably harder than any Korean I have laid eyes on, and is a perfect representation of JinJunKwan Hapkido. I'm not sure of the relationship between he, and Dojunim though, asI have not had the opportunity to discuss it with him. He holds a Yuk Dan and is more than happy to travel anywhere, anytime to get on the mat with someone who doubts his abilities.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Stuart:

".....All of the above leaders in thier own right as long as they're doing the right thing for the Art and thier students and are trying to better themselves...."

I have been realy enjoying this string, but I also notice that there is something that people seem to be stepping around and not talking about. Nobody has said anything about criticism. For me I see two possible aspects to talk about in this regard.

One aspect is the ability of the individual ("leader") to accept criticism. When I say "accept" I am talking about hearing a judgement, listening to that judgement, acknowledging the pro-s and cons of that judgment and then making changes in response to that judgement. For myself, I think this is a huge part of trying to be as "transparent" on discussion nets as possible. When a leader, somehow puts himself beyond criticism I think its a dangerous course of action.

The other part I see is when followers of an individual --- even well-meaning followers---- want to put a person beyond criticism. For instance, I have heard people say that it is disrespectful to discuss Chois' background as it somehow shows disrespect for that leader even though he is now deceased. Once again, I think this is a dangerous course of action. Is anyone willing to discuss the role of criticism in discussing our present Hapkido leadership? Does anyone want to suggest guidelines for expressing criticism of Hapkido personalities? Thoughts? Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Disco]

Does anyone want to suggest guidelines for expressing criticism of Hapkido personalities? Thoughts? Comments?

No person is above criticism, but problems arise when constructive criticism becomes defaming. There is a thin line between the two. As for guidelines to differentiate, I would suggest the use of any adjective (discripitive word; i.e. Lousy, Bum, Fraud, etc.), that could/would be used in reference to someone not be used or tempered. Discussion viewpoints can be made without resorting to slamming, at least in my opinion. :asian:

 

[American HKD]

Dear Bruce,

People like Choi, Ji, Myung as heads or leaders will automatically draw inquires as to who they are, where they came from etc. Jealousy may have something to do with negative comments about someone which is wrong for sure.

We should be able to question our so called leaders in a respectful way, if they not up to the scrutiny there's a problem somewhere?

Doju Ji will answer any question about his past to when asked in a friendly and respectful way esspecially by his students. An outsider or a challenger may not be seen the same way.
I heard him refer to Choi as his Master there's no problem there.

 

[glad2bhere]

I was not thinking so much in terms of what has happened in the past. Actually if people are still bending the past around at this late date I don't know that there is much we can do, yes? Rather, I was thinking about the way things are done on a regular basis in the here and now. Here are a few examples.

1.) The identified leader has not specified a person or group of persons to act in the event that he (the leader) is incapcitated.

2.) Recognition of a person or group of people does not sit well with the balance of the practitioners in a particular group.

3.) Members of a group or organization desire to review a policy, modify material or revisit accepted standards.

4.) Individuals express a desire to shift the priorities or premises of the arts' stated philosophy.

5.) Introduction or updating of teaching model or priorities.

6.) Introduction of new, or elimination of old business practices.

I hear these things pop-up in discussions off-and-on and wonder how one critiques leadership when there are behaviors such as these being considered. I know most of the time the pat answer is "go ask him", the answer is "no" and people "vote with their feet". I'm wondering if there is a way of formenting change even in traditional venues that might well reduce the amount of splintering in Hapkido organizations. Thoughts? Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Master Todd Miller]

What did Choi or his succesors put on paper as a Hapkido philosophy other than the 3 principles?

You can go to the Jungki Kwan web page or my website and look at the Hapkido section to find our philosophy. I looked at GM Ji's 9 rules and to be honest it sounds very hoaky to me!

Take care
Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com

 

[glad2bhere]

Well, I certainly wouldn't want to find myself chest-deep in the sort of revisionist stuff the Japanese culture went through in the last couple hundred years. I read some of the romantic crap about how the Samurai warrior class epitomized the warrior ideal and I have to wonder what history these folks were reading! What makes me sad is that the Korean culture had a set of standards in place for generations and its hard to find any KMA that hasn't substituted imported philosophy for what they had at home. Still, if the leader can model how to make a given philosophy work in his life and imbue his students with the desire to emmulate him does it really matter if someone else sees those life skills as hoaky or not? FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Master Todd Miller]

What makes me sad is that the Korean culture had a set of standards in place for generations and its hard to find any KMA that hasn't substituted imported philosophy for what they had at home. Still, if the leader can model how to make a given philosophy work in his life and imbue his students with the desire to emmulate him does it really matter if someone else sees those life skills as hoaky or not? FWIW.


If you look at the Jungki Web page you will see that the philosophy is Korean not imported from elsewhere! Bruce, Have you looked at GM Ji's 9 rules? :whip:

Todd
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com

 

[American HKD]

Dear Todd,

I think your calling Ji's SinMoo philosophy "hoaky" and asking Bruce to agree with you sounds very much like your trying making fun and or being dis-respectful I hope that's not the case?

After reading the Jung Ki Philosophy you suggested I don't find anything new or unique? What I mean by that is it's the same thing we learned in HKD before SinMoo HKD was established by Doju Ji.

You seem to keep missing the point or trying to seperate Jung Ki HKD from HKD but we have the same roots. Ji was an instructor under Choi Yong Sul and one of his first students in Korea they also had a long term relationship part of the first HKD assoc. It would go to reason that most Hapkidoin are taught the same or very similar HKD
philosophy.

 

[Master Todd Miller]

I think your calling Ji's SinMoo philosophy "hoaky" and asking Bruce to agree with you sounds very much like your trying making fun and or being dis-respectful I hope that's not the case?


Lets clarify some things! I was not asking Bruce or anyone else to agree with my opinion! I meant no dissrespect to GM Ji. I do think that Ji's 9 rules sound less like a philosophy and more like a religeous rule book! My view is all things in moderation.

I would be interested what others think of Ji's 9 rules not GM Ji.

Take care
Todd

Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com

 

[glad2bhere]

I was not going to comment on the message as much as support anyone who has the courage to be a messenger. Over in the TKD forum they are talking about how TKD gets such a bad rap, but the fact is that many of the TKD personages did that to themselves. It takes character to profess a standard and encourage other people to live by a standard. A lot of those MA folks were too afraid of alienating their clientele. Taken a step farther it takes character to turn that standard into action for the betterment of the community. A little bit ago I got a circular from a doctors' group that does cleft-lip surgery for impoverished kids in South America. Costs about $250 a kid to have their faces mended and it changes a life forever. We got people on this net who spend a whole lot more than $250 on a weekend out, a prom, a home-coming or Spring Break. I keep waiting for these self-identified "grand masters", "kwan jang" and so forth to show what they are made of and encourage their cadre to get out and make a difference. I'm still waiting. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

Dear Todd,

I accept your answer but to single out 9 rules and to comment or judge them is totally ridiculous. The 9 rules is only small part of the whole and it wouldn't be a fair comment from anyone who has'nt studied the philosophy.

I'm sure you see my point, it would be like a white belt in Jung Ki telling you this technique is Hoaky etc.

In short SinMoo is based largely on Korean Taoism. Taoism came from China in the 4 or 5th century and is credited to a man named Lao Tzu. Taoism is a Major Chinese philosophy regarded as a hugh work and Lao Tzu a giant thinker. Taoism is not considered a religion but as way of life.
Tao is Chinese for "Do" or "way". So Taoism mean the "WAY". The same as in Hap Ki Do.

A little background about myself I have studied Taoism for 25years I'm not a Taoist per se but highly regard the lessons it contains. My wife is Chinese and was raised around Buddists and Taoists which adds to my insight.

Ji's SinMoo is not a religion but contains many Taoist like ideas. These ideas are usually contained in short sayings or phases like the 9 rules. Each one is a philosophical ideas if you will. Each idea is a study in itself, so to understand and internalize each idea in Taoism takes basically forever.

Important point:
Don't mis-understand what actually seems like "simple ideas" as Hoaky the "simpleness is the beauty of Taoism". We sometimes pass right over the simple as not important or irrealavent.

If your interested I encourge you to read about it.

 

[kwanjang]

...I keep waiting for these self-identified "grand masters", "kwan jang" and so forth to show what they are made of and encourage their cadre to get out and make a difference. I'm still waiting. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Hello Bruce: I did not realize you were waiting Last week, my students and I raised over three thousand dollars to help a student from another school who has terminal cancer. His own school mates had not bothered, so I took on the challenge. We had a great time, and by the way this person reacted it was quite obvious that it helped him cover some expenses he had not been able to take care of.

I am not sure if you remember the seminar I did in your neck of the woods. The entire proceeds of that went to one of your local people who needed some help. It seems strange to me that his own students did not take care of that, and it was even more bizarre that I received a less than flattering email from the president of the association this person belonged to. His worry was that I had not "asked" him for permission to do the seminar?????? Oh well... I just keep on doing my thing in the know that the folks that matter appreciate the little things I can do Some of us do our best to walk our talk, but we prefer not to talk about it.

 

[glad2bhere]

BINGO!!!! Exactly my point!

"...... Last week, my students and I raised over three thousand dollars to help a student from another school who has terminal cancer. His own school mates had not bothered, so I took on the challenge......

It seems strange to me that his own students did not take care of that, and it was even more bizarre that I received a less than flattering email from the president of the association this person belonged to. His worry was that I had not "asked" him for permission to do the seminar?????? Oh well... I just keep on doing my thing in the know that the folks that matter appreciate the little things I can do Some of us do our best to walk our talk, but we prefer not to talk about it......"

This is exactly the sort of thing I am talking about. You are modeling exactly what people need to be doing. I suppose some people would say "if I wanted to join the "Boy Scouts" I would", but just what do these folks think this is about? The whole idea of martial discipline is to develop the sort of character that gives a person the strength to do things when they have every other reason not to. I hope you keep doing what you are doing. In fact I hope it gets plastered across the media for everybody to see. I would love to see the faces of these other big names rubbed in this and have them exposed for how small-minded they are. I've watched for years now as the better-known personalities talk about high-flown ethics and ideals, then when its time to put things into action they are nothing more than commerce in a do-bok. I'd like nothing better than to have people finally see their hypocrisy for what it is. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

Wanted to chime in...

I have always seen Hapkido as a war art. Self-defense, no-nonsense, practical and real. From all that I understand, Choi, Yong Sul taught Hapkido with three basic theories,and some, but not a lot of "philosophy" - that was left up to the students - take the theories and expand/elaborate on them. SO, that is how we arrive at the large nuber of different philosophical ideas currently seen at dojangs.

Philosophy is like an opinion, it can be discussed, it can be disagreed with, but someone's philosophy is never wrong for them or those that choose to follow it. Philosophy can be tied directly to the faith one has in it, and you just can't fight faith - if you really believe in something I ain't really gonna change your mind...

I don't argue philosophy for this reason - lineage, or technical knowledge, that is another matter.

As for the idea of rallying the troops for a cause, I am still on the fence here. I am really not convinced that my dojang should be a hub for community service...but I do like the idea of occasionally helping out a group or individual.

In terms of leadership, I think of a single thing, if I am a leader in humane and ethical treatment to my students, I believe they will be the same outside the dojang.

Kwanjang Rudy, funny story of the organization head that wanted you to have his "permission" - probably just wanted a cut of the money - good for you to stick to it and help.

Here is another avenue of leadership...

I would rather pass on a recommendation to another Hapkido Dojang to someone - even with different training and philosophical standards than lose them to another art. Further, I would rather recommend another art than lose someone to (say) volleyball. We don't all have to be driking buddies, but as instructors and leaders, we owe it to people we know or don't know to find their own path in Hapkido (or martial arts). That's leadership to me.

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

 

[Master Todd Miller]

Important point:
Don't mis-understand what actually seems like "simple ideas" as Hoaky the "simpleness is the beauty of Taoism". We sometimes pass right over the simple as not important or irrealavent.

I believe in keeping things simple. Adding rules and too many other things takes away from Hapkido rather than adding to it. IMHO

Stuart,

I have also studied Taoism, and have a decent understanding of it. I think it is important for serious practitioners of Korean Mudo to become aware of the different veiws of life and how Korean culture has developed but that is only to enhance my understanding of Korean culture.

I am not trying to separate from other Hapkidoin but to give credit where it is due. Choi, Yong Sool is the founder and father of the Hapkido arts!

Take care
Todd
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com

 

[masterswife]

Hi:
Just stopping by. Great conversations and glad to see that really deep and insightful conversations take place here. I truly enjoy reading the posts.

Take Care,

Joannie Wollmershauser

 

[kwanjang]

...Kwanjang Rudy, funny story of the organization head that wanted you to have his "permission" - probably just wanted a cut of the money - good for you to stick to it and help....
Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

Hello Kevin. To be honest, I believe the individual was more concerned with protocol than money. I just did not feel it my responsibility to do someone a favor and ask for permission to do that. I felt that this, if it was required at all in the first place, would be the repsonsibility of the dojang owner to settle with his Master.

If something like that would happen in my org. I would jump in and do my best to make the event even better in any way I could. IMHO... the focus of the seminar was to help someone in need, and I would be thankful to anyone who would help one of my people.

On a broader scale. I do these things on a regular basis, because I believe that teaching fighting skills needs to be tempered by a genuine caring for other people. Without that, I would be afraid the skills I teach my students might be used for the wrong reasons. The philosophy I teach in my school is more akin to what my mom and dad taught me about right and wrong. FWIW, it does give ME the peace of mind I look for in martial arts, and I guess I am just a tad selfish about that

Don't get me wrong... the classes I personally teach are the old fashioned type where I still rule with the Jook Do (I don't do kids classes myself for obvious reasons, and I try to make them as hard nosed as the way I was taught by my Master. I believe that many schools have gone overboard on the soft approach of cuddling their students. My own school has this type of class two days a week, and I am personally very uncomfortable there. Alas, we need to keep the doors open, so I have to provide the soft touch service to those who can't handle the old time classes.

 

[American HKD]

Dear Todd,

That's all cool we just have a little different opinions in that area.

Sometimes talking politics or religion is difficult even among friends.