Latest TOW, Intellctual Departure

[Touch Of Death]

Hello all,
Please check out http//www.ltatum.com/tipoftheweek.html#25.
I was wondering what anybody thought about it. I'll start off by pointing out that great big "and" in the quick demonstration of Delayed Sword, that is... why do a hammering block whan your hands are at your sides? Any thoughts?
Sean

 

[kenpo12]

You hammer because it's against a grab.

 

[howardr]

Hello all,
Please check out http//www.ltatum.com/tipoftheweek.html#25.
I was wondering what anybody thought about it. I'll start off by pointing out that great big "and" in the quick demonstration of Delayed Sword, that is... why do a hammering block whan your hands are at your sides? Any thoughts?
Sean

Why do a hammering strike in Delayed Sword? I'd say for alignment and power. This sort of attack seems more of an intimidation (after all, the guy just didn't punch you, he put his hands on you, and isn't that likely to be afraid of you), and if that's what the sort of situation you're confronted with, you have a little time. Therefore, a hammering strike is feasible. (Obviously, if there are indications that he's going to immediately strike then you should act accordingly.) Also, I think a hammering strike, properly done, can be extremely fast (even if not quite as fast as a non-hammering) plus it is far more structurally sound and significantly more powerful. Finally, if another strike is on the way, the hammering strike may sweep across and catch it.

I thought it was interesting that the attack seemed more like a stiff arm grab rather than a bent arm grab.

Howard

 

[kenpo12]

TOD,

What is the first block used in Short form 1?

 

[Touch Of Death]

You hammer because it's against a grab.

Kenpo12,
Reguardless of the attack, if your hands are at your sides you should thrust it right off the hip. As for your second question, that would depend on wheather or not you brought your hands to your hips off the meditation or went right from the meditation. I'll assume you do it from the meditation. so its a bad hammer unless you bring it to the starting point of reference for a hammer(back to the same shoulder). I say bad hammer because your going to graft a thrust from the meditating horse. I hope that helps.
Sean

 

[psi_radar]

If you don't want to do the "Hey, I don't want any trouble" hands-up maneuver to get in position for the hammer, you can always use the left side of Lone Kimono. The hammer in Delayed Sword is necessary to cancel the height, width and depth zones. If you have someone really hammer on your radial like that you'll not only let go, you'll spin down, away, and out.

Good tip, interesting.

 

[kenpo12]

"Reguardless of the attack, if your hands are at your sides you should thrust it right off the hip. "

I dissagree, I do believe there are situations where the above statement holds true but not everytime. Additionally, by elongating the circle, as with the hammer block, you may also be able to catch the nose or jaw.

 

[Touch Of Death]

"Reguardless of the attack, if your hands are at your sides you should thrust it right off the hip. "

I dissagree, I do believe there are situations where the above statement holds true but no everytime. Additionally, be elongating the circle, as with the hammer block, you may also be able to catch the nose or jaw.

However your just assuming your opponent will let you take the time to get in a hammering position from an hands down position (perhaps while he lights a cigarette with the other hand.[ha ha] Just kidding) You are under attack. In all seriousness, what are your priorities, defending yourself or doing delayed sword? Big circles big trouble.
Sean

 

[kenpo12]

I understand about the priorities but I really don't see why you wouldn't have time to hammer the block if you are checking the grabbing hand while stepping back. The the step back with the pin on the grabbing hand will cancel your opponents width giving you the time needed.

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

TOD
Regardless of the attack, if your hands are at your sides you should thrust it right off the hip.

Interesting observation. I completely agree.

TOD
However you're just assuming your opponent will let you take the time to get in a hammering position from a hands down position (perhaps while he lights a cigarette with the other hand.[ha ha] Just kidding) You are under attack. In all seriousness, what are your priorities, defending yourself or doing delayed sword? Big circles big trouble.

Kenpo12
I understand about the priorities but I really don't see why you wouldn't have time to hammer the block if you are checking the grabbing hand while stepping back. The the step back with the pin on the grabbing hand will cancel your opponents width giving you the time needed.

Umm who's to say that the grab isn't a punch to the head (you know.... slightly above your lapel)? How do you know whether the forward movement of your opponents arm towards your lapel is a grab or a punch? Do you just wait to see? Even if you miss the initial signs and do get grabbed why not strike in a direct path from point of origin (assuming hands are by your side) instead of making a big circular path eating up precious time.

This sort of attack seems more of an intimidation (after all, the guy just didn't punch you, he put his hands on you, and isn't that likely to be afraid of you), and if that's what the sort of situation you're confronted with, you have a little time.

I agree that it is a method of intimidation but it is also a means for your attacker to test both his and your resolve. The second he has his hands on you the test is over and he has his answer. Do you wait to see what it was? Hell NO!!! At this point you have missed all the warning signs, but this should be a HUGE one...... STRIKE NOW. If your hands are up do Delayed sword, but if they aren't do Raking mace which is essentially delayed sword preceeded by a punch to the abdomen. You could also do the first palm heel strike from Triggered Salute depending on whether you were pulled in or not. By using the palm heel stike, you could also create a wedge against an incoming right punch by dominating the centerline. However, I would argue that at time you are way behind the curve and have ZERO time to move or think. At this point make it fast, make it hurt, and start looking for his buddies don't become a victim of target fixation. People tend to be more bold when they have several friends around.

just my thoughts.

 

[kenpo12]

Whatever, I'm done debating, I know it works and that's all I care about. You can nitpick all day and what if'ing it to death. Delayed Sword in it's "ideal phase" is for a grab, plain and simple. If you learned it differently I'm sorry but there is a reason it's for a grab and there is a reason to do the hammer block.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Whatever, I'm done debating, I know it works and that's all I care about. You can nitpick all day and what if'ing it to death. Delayed Sword in it's "ideal phase" is for a grab, plain and simple. If you learned it differently I'm sorry but there is a reason it's for a grab and there is a reason to do the hammer block.

That reason being?

 

[TheEdge883]

Whatever, I'm done debating, I know it works and that's all I care about. You can nitpick all day and what if'ing it to death. Delayed Sword in it's "ideal phase" is for a grab, plain and simple. If you learned it differently I'm sorry but there is a reason it's for a grab and there is a reason to do the hammer block.

Depending on your school. Delayed Sword was first taught to me as a step through straight punch.

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

Depending on your school. Delayed Sword was first taught to me as a step through straight punch.

NO, not depending on your school, depending on your head or chief instructor. This is how Kenpo gets distorted and bastardized, and where people feel there are voids to fill because they didn't get the information to begin with. Can we all say NATURE OF THE ATTACK!!!!!!

Dark Lord

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

That reason being?

The nature of the attack and relative position in the Universal Pattern is relegated to the level at which you learn material, on the 24 tech curriculum. There are reasons Mr. Parker put the material where he did, and then outlined that curriculum to print in Infinite Insights many years later, contrary to what many people believe. If someone thinks they're creative or innovative by deleting, altering, and formulating new techniques, they've never engrained the system to begin with. If it ain't broke, don't F with it, but you can still tinker and play within the boundaries of the material for a lifetime.



Dark Lord

 

[TheEdge883]

NO, not depending on your school, depending on your head or chief instructor. This is how Kenpo gets distorted and bastardized, and where people feel there are voids to fill because they didn't get the information to begin with. Can we all say NATURE OF THE ATTACK!!!!!!

Dark Lord

So the kenpo I learn is bastardized because I learned the defense against a punch and not a grab? Wasn't it originally taught as a punch?

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

So the kenpo I learn is bastardized because I learned the defense against a punch and not a grab? Wasn't it originally taught as a punch?

Main Entry: bas·tard·ize
Pronunciation: 'bas-t&r-"dIz
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -ized; -iz·ing
1 : to reduce from a higher to a lower state or condition : [size=-1]DEBASE[/size]
2 : to declare or prove to be a bastard
3 : to modify especially by introducing discordant or disparate elements
- bas·tard·i·za·tion /"bas-t&r-d&-'zA-sh&n/ noun

In a word, I'd say YES. And you probably learned alot of other techniques differently as well.




Dark Lord

 

[Touch Of Death]

NO, not depending on your school, depending on your head or chief instructor. This is how Kenpo gets distorted and bastardized, and where people feel there are voids to fill because they didn't get the information to begin with. Can we all say NATURE OF THE ATTACK!!!!!!

Dark Lord

Great, let's talk about the nature of the attack. The purpose of a grab is to lead you into an unfavorable position. This means the punch with the other hand is comming. Choosing to violate point of origin by swinging your arm behind you to a hammering position, sounds more like a moment late and a block short to me. If the ideal is going to get you killed, its time to re-evaluate the ideal.
Sean

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

Great, let's talk about the nature of the attack. The purpose of a grab is to lead you into an unfavorable position. This means the punch with the other hand is comming. Choosing to violate point of origin by swinging your arm behind you to a hammering position, sounds more like a moment late and a block short to me. If the ideal is going to get you killed, its time to re-evaluate the ideal.
Sean

NO, only your ideal, it works for everybody else the way Matt 12 explained it, besides the fact the cocking could just as easily turn into an outward block or strike. Makes you go hmm doesn't it?

Dark Lord

 

[Touch Of Death]

So the kenpo I learn is bastardized because I learned the defense against a punch and not a grab? Wasn't it originally taught as a punch?

Your instructor is doing just fine. Don't let this guy get to you.
Sean