Last Poster #8

[Steve]

Well, I’m in Virginia for the oldest PhD defense. After that he has 3 more papers to publish and then off to work in Pennsylvania

Congrats!

 

[Xue Sheng]

Congrats!

Thanks

 

[Xue Sheng]

Airport adventures

A scheduled hour and 10 minute layover turned into 2.5 hours due to technical difficulties with the plane
First thing i was not thrilled with

Then we board… jet engine running, everyone finally on board… plane looses power and everything shuts down….

Restart…. Repeat 2 more times
Next thing I’m not thrilled with

Technician comes on board…30 minutes later…. we’re all fixed all better
Me: considering getting the heck out of here

But announcement: we’re good to go…. But apparently the ground crew forgot us and the boarding ramp was still connected, and they couldn’t shut the door

20 minutes later, they finally get the ramp away. Door closes, we’re off. Take off rough, flight rough, and first noticeable bouncing landing i have had

2nd worst flight i ever had, but the scariest due to the technical difficulties

Welcome to Virginia

 

[Gyakuto]

Since replying to that, I've learned that my mother in law's bypass surgery (rosa) had complications, and my abuela caridad) is currently on the edge of going to hospice vs. being discharged normally. If you could pray for them I'd appreciate that. Sent my own prayers when i heard the news but additional prayers can't hurt.

This is an excellent scientifically paper written by a devout Christian surgeon who wanted to investigate the effects of prayer on recovering cardiac patients. The scheme he arrange was rigorous (unusual for clinicians!) Please read at least the abstract. Intercessory prayer for cardiac patients was shown to associated with more complications for those prayed for, especially if the knew they were being prayed for!

Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP) in cardiac bypass patients: a multicenter randomized trial of uncertainty and certainty of receiving intercessory prayer - PubMed

Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Prince_Alarming]

I'm sick, but then you knew that anyway. What I mean is that I've pulled a sickie. Some of the people at the bible study group have some pretty shall we say old fashioned opinions, and I'm not good at dealing with that.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Since replying to that, I've learned that my mother in law's bypass surgery (rosa) had complications, and my abuela caridad) is currently on the edge of going to hospice vs. being discharged normally. If you could pray for them I'd appreciate that. Sent my own prayers when i heard the news but additional prayers can't hurt.

Sorry to hear that, my condolences.

 

[Xue Sheng]

This is an excellent scientifically paper written by a devout Christian surgeon who wanted to investigate the effects of prayer on recovering cardiac patients. The scheme he arrange was rigorous (unusual for clinicians!) Please read at least the abstract. Intercessory prayer for cardiac patients was shown to associated with more complications for those prayed for, especially if the knew they were being prayed for!

Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP) in cardiac bypass patients: a multicenter randomized trial of uncertainty and certainty of receiving intercessory prayer - PubMed

Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Seriously dude, you posted that in response… ok, whatever floats your boat i guess

 

[Xue Sheng]

Since replying to that, I've learned that my mother in law's bypass surgery (rosa) had complications, and my abuela caridad) is currently on the edge of going to hospice vs. being discharged normally. If you could pray for them I'd appreciate that. Sent my own prayers when i heard the news but additional prayers can't hurt.

Sorry to hear this

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

This is an excellent scientifically paper written by a devout Christian surgeon who wanted to investigate the effects of prayer on recovering cardiac patients. The scheme he arrange was rigorous (unusual for clinicians!) Please read at least the abstract. Intercessory prayer for cardiac patients was shown to associated with more complications for those prayed for, especially if the knew they were being prayed for!

Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP) in cardiac bypass patients: a multicenter randomized trial of uncertainty and certainty of receiving intercessory prayer - PubMed

Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I looked through that last time you posted it. I tend to not take singular studies at face-value, since there's been plenty of times that two studies can test the same thing and have differing results, largely due to either chance or a flaw in the study; I'd need at least 3-5 consistent studies to rely on it.

In this study for instance, there are 3 issues with the conclusion you've drawn.
1) it's a small sample size, and the difference between the groups in complications (37 people difference out of approximately 600 in each, an either 6 or 3 percent of the whole group depending on if you take it as 600 or 1200) is pretty small, an amount that could be chance.
2) They're not noting any difference between mortality rates or major events, furthering the idea that the other difference is chance or ultimately unimportant to the patient's health.
3) We do not know how the intent of the prayer may impact everything. ie: People weren't receiving prayers out of benevolence, but out of a desire to test prayer. It also doesn't indicate if each person wants to receive prayer (some people may be devout hindus, or atheist, and actively be upset to learn they're being prayed for). Given how prayer is supposed to work, the better option would be to ask each person if they received prayer for their surgery, how that impacts their mental state, and do a control for each person's religiosity (so that the researchers aren't accidentally just getting if people are religious, rather than if they were genuinely prayed for).

That said, this could be a data point. But isn't strong enough to bring up on its own. And also is pretty irrelevant to me asking someone else to pray for my abuela and mother in law.

 

[Gyakuto]

I looked through that last time you posted it. I tend to not take singular studies at face-value, since there's been plenty of times that two studies can test the same thing and have differing results, largely due to either chance or a flaw in the study; I'd need at least 3-5 consistent studies to rely on it.

It’s not been repeated because there’s no funding opportunity in this kind of ‘para’ research…this kind of research is often a ‘career arrester’.

In this study for instance, there are 3 issues with the conclusion you've drawn.
1) it's a small sample size, and the difference between the groups in complications (37 people difference out of approximately 600 in each, an either 6 or 3 percent of the whole group depending on if you take it as 600 or 1200) is pretty small, an amount that could be chance.

You can’t say that without doing a statistical power calculation which the author will undoubtedly have performed and then adding data to his spread sheet until the error bars no longer became smaller at which point they’d stop. My first year students often came up with this critique of research and when I asked how they knew, they’d say, “Well it just looks like a small number”

2) They're not noting any difference between mortality rates or major events, furthering the idea that the other difference is chance or ultimately unimportant to the patient's health.

I don’t follow this at all. A complication is not a good thing even if it can be dealt with.

3) We do not know how the intent of the prayer may impact everything. ie: People weren't receiving prayers out of benevolence, but out of a desire to test prayer.

Weren’t the prayer groups unaware for what or whom they were praying for, just being given a name?

It also doesn't indicate if each person wants to receive prayer (some people may be devout hindus, or atheist, and actively be upset to learn they're being prayed for).

Informed consent; ethics committee approval would require they were told they’re part of the study and they would have the ability to opt out.

Given how prayer is supposed to work,

‘Supposed to work’ They’re just a magical spell incanted to which ever deity you happened to have been indoctrinated to by one’s parents.

the better option would be to ask each person if they received prayer for their surgery, how that impacts their mental state, and do a control for each person's religiosity (so that the researchers aren't accidentally just getting if people are religious, rather than if they were genuinely prayed for).

Again, part of the ethics committee approval.

That said, this could be a data point. But isn't strong enough to bring up on its own. And also is pretty irrelevant to me asking someone else to pray for my abuela and mother in law.

That’s true. Best of luck for an uneventful recovery.

Just for the record, when I have cardiac surgery, I sincerely ask for no one to pray for me, not least in case this paper’s author’s conclusions are correct!

 

[jks9199]

Well, I’m in Virginia for the oldest PhD defense. After that he has 3 more papers to publish and then off to work in Pennsylvania

Card to say which part or school?

 

[Prince_Alarming]

Just for the record, when I have cardiac surgery, I sincerely ask for no one to pray for me, not least in case this paper’s author’s conclusions are correct!

Noted. What's your stance on sacrificial offerings and the like?

 

[Gyakuto]

@Monkey Turned Wolf, at least tell me which bits you disagree with and ensure you back then up with evidence.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

@Monkey Turned Wolf, at least tell me which bits you disagree with and ensure you back then up with evidence.

I disagree with the relevance/accuracy of most of your rebuttals to my point. Mainly that because having an accurate study is difficult/impossible doesn't mean that a less accurate study holds water. But will state again, that it's pretty inappropriate to bring that up in the case of me asking prince_alarming to pray for them, which is why I'm not choosing to debate it with you right now.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Card to say which part or school?

Mechanical engineering and aerospace

 

[Gyakuto]

I disagree with the relevance/accuracy of most of your rebuttals to my point. Mainly that because having an accurate study is difficult/impossible doesn't mean that a less accurate study holds water.

You don’t have an academic research background do? A taught master or two, perhaps?

But will state again, that it's pretty inappropriate to bring that up in the case of me asking prince_alarming to pray for them, which is why I'm not choosing to debate it with you right now.

Religions/religious people and their practises have no special immunity to being questioned and argued with than say political/social/philosophical perspectives. The fact that some people believe they do have this kind of immunity has led to former Bishop of Swansea and Brecon, Anthony Pierce being jailed today. Blind eyes were turned.

I will respond no further.

 

[Prince_Alarming]

I won't try to defend the indefensible, except to say that my Bishop is a good and holy man who has made it plain that such actions are wholly unacceptable. If anything, we should be held to a higher standard.