Languages

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
For instance, Hong Kong uses Catonese, which is like what a drawl is in English, it doesn't sound right versus the mainland language.

That is actually incorrect. It is nothing like a drawl.
A drawl would be a variation on the original tongue; such is not the case here.
Cantonese is a Chinese dialect from the Canton (Guangdong) Region in China.
It is just as much a separate living language as Fukenese (Fujen hwa) is or any other dialect in Chinese of which there are many.
For example, I lived in Taiwan for some time and studied both Mandarin Chinese as well as Fukenese/Taiwanese. Some older folks in Taiwan only speak one or the other depending when they escaped from China and cannot understand one another. This actually led to some political problems......but that is a different subject.
The Fukenese/Taiwanese spoken in Taiwan is sometimes different than that spoken in Fuken. Much like the difference between British and American English.........that could be viewed as a "drawl".
However, Mandarin, Fukenese, Cantonese, Haka, etc are all very different from each other and are all separate languages; the only common denominator is that they all use the same kanji.

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
And so many styles use different terms. Hell, depending on the region and era and art, they even have a different name for kung fu.

And so we return to the very crux of using foreign language terms while teaching MA in the western world.

First, "kung fu" does not mean "martial arts" in Chinese. Those characters denote skill developed over time. Period. So you can have refrigerator repair kung fu, taxi driving kung fu, etc. On mainland China, the term "wu shu" is what is most commonly used. Those characters do refer to what we call in English "martial arts." The first character refers to military, war, etc. (and for the sake of brevity I am going with a definition of that character that I do not like one bit, since there is much more implied in the character than simply war and military) The second character refers to techniques or methods. It is my understanding that the term "guo shu" is used more commonly in Taiwan, and translates most simply as "national arts."

Sort of a bottom line deal - either study the mother tongue of the art you are learning so as to better understand certain aspects of it, or chuck it all and stick with the language you speak natively. Those are the only ways to avoid misunderstandings...

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
That is actually incorrect. It is nothing like a drawl.
A drawl would be a variation on the original tongue; such is not the case here.
Cantonese is a Chinese dialect from the Canton (Guangdong) Region in China.
It is just as much a separate living language as Fukenese (Fujen hwa) is or any other dialect in Chinese of which there are many.
For example, I lived in Taiwan for some time and studied both Mandarin Chinese as well as Fukenese/Taiwanese. Some older folks in Taiwan only speak one or the other depending when they escaped from China and cannot understand one another. This actually led to some political problems......but that is a different subject.
The Fukenese/Taiwanese spoken in Taiwan is sometimes different than that spoken in Fuken. Much like the difference between British and American English.........that could be viewed as a "drawl".
However, Mandarin, Fukenese, Cantonese, Haka, etc are all very different from each other and are all separate languages; the only common denominator is that they all use the same kanji.

Yes, but Mandarin is considered the official language because the other variations rooted from it?

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
And so we return to the very crux of using foreign language terms while teaching MA in the western world.

First, "kung fu" does not mean "martial arts" in Chinese. Those characters denote skill developed over time. Period. So you can have refrigerator repair kung fu, taxi driving kung fu, etc. On mainland China, the term "wu shu" is what is most commonly used. Those characters do refer to what we call in English "martial arts." The first character refers to military, war, etc. (and for the sake of brevity I am going with a definition of that character that I do not like one bit, since there is much more implied in the character than simply war and military) The second character refers to techniques or methods. It is my understanding that the term "guo shu" is used more commonly in Taiwan, and translates most simply as "national arts."

Sort of a bottom line deal - either study the mother tongue of the art you are learning so as to better understand certain aspects of it, or chuck it all and stick with the language you speak natively. Those are the only ways to avoid misunderstandings...

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

I have a question, what about today's denotation? If someone mentioned kung fu, would they view it as a set of skills developed over time or the Chinese martial arts?

Interesting excerpt on kung fu and the names of each era

Formosa is kung fu in mainland China
kuo shu or kuo chi is what it's called in Hong Kong
and kempo in Japan.

Chuen yung - The Book of Poetry
wu ni - chun chiu era
Chi chi - Chan Kuo Era
Chi chiao - Han Dynasty
Shou po - Han Dynastu
King shou - Ni Dynasty
Chi Yung - Ming Dynastry
Chi ni - ming Dynasty
Pai shou - Ching Dynasty
Wu shu - Chinese Republic
Kuo Shu - Chinese Rep
Kuo Chi - Chinese Rep

 

[Matt Stone]

Kung fu isn't referred to as kempo in Japan. The characters for wu shu are pronounced bu jutsu in Japanese. People who are engaged in the gymnastic type of modern wu shu sometimes refer to what they do as wu shu as well.

In general, in my experience, most non-MA Japanese referred to martial arts as budo, not knowing there was much of a difference between budo and bujutsu, and not caring overly much either.

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
Yes, but Mandarin is considered the official language because the other variations rooted from it?

No that’s not it at all.
Mandarin is the “Official” Language because 1) it is considered the easiest to learn out of all the Chinese languages; it has only 4 tones where some have up to 13 and 2) it is the language that originally came from Beijing, the capital of China and home of the past Emperors.

 

[Matt Stone]

Ladies and Gentlemen -

I have been privately and politely corrected in my understanding of the term "kung fu" and its use in China and Taiwan.

RyuShiKan emailed me, and informed me that in China and Taiwan (two places he has actually lived), they do, in fact, use the term "kung fu" to refer to martial arts. He did, however, confirm that the term "wu shu" isn't used much in Taiwan.

I stand corrected, and wanted that to be known publicly. I don't like being proven wrong, but I was. I apologize to those against who I argued the point, though I would suggest that most people who believe "kung fu" is the term used in China base that not on direct experience or evidence, but only from common usage.

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian: