Kukkiwon Promotion Rules changes

[TrueJim]

...also, I'm still confused about the use of the word "panel" in this context. Does that mean when somebody needs to test to 3rd dan, they do so in front of a panel? Or does it mean there's a regional panel in which examiners can be drawn from, but any one of those examiners will do in terms of giving the test?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Can you let us know what they say about when the new policy is going into effect? I need to know what the deadline is for promoting people to 3rd dan without doing the course. That way, we can decide whether Mr WaterGal needs to fly out to LA in January to do the course then, which will be very expensive and mean we need to raise our testing fees, or if we have time to wait for one that's closer by.

Since the only official communication we have seen posted references a "panel" for promotions, I suspect Mr Watergal will need to take a couple others to LA in January.

 

[andyjeffries]

Can you let us know what they say about when the new policy is going into effect? I need to know what the deadline is for promoting people to 3rd dan without doing the course. That way, we can decide whether Mr WaterGal needs to fly out to LA in January to do the course then, which will be very expensive and mean we need to raise our testing fees, or if we have time to wait for one that's closer by.

I'll certainly post back what I find out, particularly around rules and deadlines.

As I understand it at the moment, the new rules will take effect "from March 2016". That doesn't mean that globally from that date it all changes, just that each country should aim to be ready by then and as each country is ready then the rules take effect in that country.

 

[andyjeffries]

...also, I'm still confused about the use of the word "panel" in this context. Does that mean when somebody needs to test to 3rd dan, they do so in front of a panel? Or does it mean there's a regional panel in which examiners can be drawn from, but any one of those examiners will do in terms of giving the test?

I haven't heard any official answers, but from conversations with people on the invitation course so far - it seems that people who are qualified examiners can still do their own gradings (maybe for a time period). Panels will be formed from certified examiners in order to test students for people who don't have a qualified examiner in their dojang. That may be wrong, but that's my understanding after speaking to multiple invitation course attendees (who incidentally all seem to have slightly differing opinions/understanding). I aim to clarify next weekend and share!

 

[WaterGal]

Since the only official communication we have seen posted references a "panel" for promotions, I suspect Mr Watergal will need to take a couple others to LA in January.

I'm not a 4th dan yet, nor is anyone else at our school, so we wouldn't be able to do that. But I'm sure some of the other schools around here (of which there are many) will send people to that one or the one in Chicago.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I'm not a 4th dan yet, nor is anyone else at our school, so we wouldn't be able to do that. But I'm sure some of the other schools around here (of which there are many) will send people to that one or the one in Chicago.

That's my biggest single objection to this change.
You are not alone. There are plenty of schools that will no longer be able to do their own promotions if a panel is required. They will be forced to bring in people. Which jacks up the prices.



Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

That's my biggest single objection to this change.
You are not alone. There are plenty of schools that will no longer be able to do their own promotions if a panel is required. They will be forced to bring in people. Which jacks up the prices.
.

I think you are posting from a "minimal testing fee" background.

For me, I would have preferred to test in front of a panel of people I don't know, provided the testing fee was less that the $370 it cost me.

 

[TrueJim]

For me, an equally significant issue is that there was no discussion about which organization should represent the Kukkiwon in the U.S. Nothing against WTMU as an organization, but is that the best organization for this?

 

[WaterGal]

I think you are posting from a "minimal testing fee" background.

For me, I would have preferred to test in front of a panel of people I don't know, provided the testing fee was less that the $370 it cost me.

The problem is that, if teachers are expected to pay out of pocket to travel 1000+ miles and stay in a hotel for a week in order to take the class, they'll probably recoup that expense by charging more for testing, not less.

 

[WaterGal]

That's my biggest single objection to this change.
You are not alone. There are plenty of schools that will no longer be able to do their own promotions if a panel is required. They will be forced to bring in people. Which jacks up the prices.

I think that - in areas with a lot of KKW TKD schools - people could trade off judging duties on a quid pro quo basis. That is to say, we call up Masters B and C in the next town and say "hey, we want to do a dan test in May, could you come judge?" and then when Master B wants to do his test, he does the same thing. But in areas where TKD schools aren't so common, that wouldn't be a viable solution. Nor would it help schools that didn't have any certified examiner.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I think you are posting from a "minimal testing fee" background.

For me, I would have preferred to test in front of a panel of people I don't know, provided the testing fee was less that the $370 it cost me.

You think the school will be able to bring in a panel from other cities, feed them, house them, and charge $370 for the test?

I'm going to put this mildly... are you nuts?

 

[Dirty Dog]

I think that - in areas with a lot of KKW TKD schools - people could trade off judging duties on a quid pro quo basis. That is to say, we call up Masters B and C in the next town and say "hey, we want to do a dan test in May, could you come judge?" and then when Master B wants to do his test, he does the same thing. But in areas where TKD schools aren't so common, that wouldn't be a viable solution. Nor would it help schools that didn't have any certified examiner.

Right, so it's not really a solution.
And then you get to "Hey, we've come to your school 3 times and you haven't come to ours (schedule conflicts, etc)."
Expecting people who run commercial schools to suddenly be willing to donate their time isn't very realistic, I think.

 

[TrueJim]

You think the school will be able to bring in a panel from other cities, feed them, house them, and charge $370 for the test?

That's largely why I'm keen to understand this "panels" thing. The communications so-far that I've seen have mentioned "panels" but they don't make it clear what the "panel" does. Is testing done in front of panels, or is testing done in front of an individual drawn from a local panel? It makes a big difference in terms of cost and logistics.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

You think the school will be able to bring in a panel from other cities, feed them, house them, and charge $370 for the test?

I'm going to put this mildly... are you nuts?

No, what I'd like to see is testing directly with a central organisation. Standards are standards; meet them and pass, don't and fail. No "he tried his best". And a more reasonable fee.

EDIT: And submitting the request to the KKW in a timely manner, rather than waiting months in order to keep a student longer.

 

[WaterGal]

Yeah, "panel" is very vague. What Gwai Lo Dan is suggesting makes a lot of sense. WTMU might organize regional/state 3rd-7th dan mass tests.

I think, theoretically, that could actually be a good thing..... but based on WTMU's handling of this whole thing so far, I'm not sure how much I trust them to actually do a good job with that. My gut tells me it's going to be a big cluster****, at least at first.

Also.... if this is the case, are they going to pay masters to be on the panel? Because otherwise, I don't know how many people will bother with the examiners course, if it costs money, they can't use it to promote their own students, and it obligates them to do free work.

[Edited for clarity.]

 

[Dirty Dog]

Yeah, "panel" is very vague. What Gwai Lo Dan is suggesting makes a lot of sense. WTMU might organize regional/state 3rd-7th dan mass tests.

I think, theoretically, that could actually be a good thing..... but based on WTMU's handling of this whole thing so far, I'm not sure how much I trust them to actually do a good job with that. My gut tells me it's going to be a big cluster****, at least at first.

Also.... if this is the case, are they going to pay masters to be on the panel? Because otherwise, I don't know how many people will bother with the examiners course, if it costs money, they can't use it to promote their own students, and it obligates them to do free work.

[Edited for clarity.]

Methinks you're beginning to agree with me that this is likely to result in a significant decrease in the number of people offering KKW certification.

 

[Jaeimseu]

I'd worry more that with not all that many people in some states being certified to promote, your students may be required to travel to a "regional testing center," likely increasing their expense while simultaneously taking a bite out of the extra profit testing fees bring to many schools.


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[TrueJim]

WTMU might organize regional/state 3rd-7th dan mass tests...I think, theoretically, that could actually be a good thing...

I dunno...we have some pretty big states here in the U.S., and some of them are pretty scarcely populated. If you're a small school in one of those states, and you've been awarding Kukkiwon certificates up until now, and suddenly you have to go a state panel that's hundreds of miles away (or the examiner needs to come to you), you might just stop bothering with Kukkiwon certificates.

I suppose one could say, "Well, if you don't have the commitment to taekwondo to drive 6 hours and get a hotel room for the night to test, then you probably shouldn't be 3nd dan anyway", but that seems like it's measuring the wrong thing. Also, if you're a not-for-profit taekwondo club, even a small added expense might be impossible for you to afford.

Some things I'm curious about though...

1. Did we have such a quality problem across Kukkiwon-style taekwondo that we needed a fix? My own experience has been that low-quality schools are anecdotal. But that could be my limited experience.

2. More importantly, even if we do need to fix a quality problem, will this new process even fix the problem?

• If I'm a 5th+ dan who's been running a "McDojang" and I want to award 3rd dan, I'll just go ahead and take this Examiners course and continue to do what I've always been doing. What does this new process even fix, except to make "McDojang" owners (who are probably best positioned to even be able to afford this course anyway!) jump through a hoop?
  
  
• And if I'm a lower-dan "McDojang" owner and I haven't been awarding 3rd dan certificates anyway, I'm obviously not going to bother taking this course, and I'll still continue to teach bad taekwondo.
  
  
• If I'm high-dan who's already been running a good-quality school with good testing standings, this new course isn't aimed at me anyway.
  

It seems to me the only audience for this course is high-dans who want to have higher testing standards for their schools but don't know how or what those standards should be?

 

[andyjeffries]

1. Did we have such a quality problem across Kukkiwon-style taekwondo that we needed a fix? My own experience has been that low-quality schools are anecdotal. But that could be my limited experience.

I would say that yes, we do. Having experienced the Kukkiwon Master Instructor (with at least one of the fellow members of this board), the quality internationally is MUCH more variable than that in Korea. I would say the average international 1st/2nd Dan is better than the average Korean of the same rank; but above that the Korean standard is far better than international standard.

My understanding is that this is to be expected - Koreans view 1st/2nd Poom/Dan as a beginner rank with expectations accordingly, whereas internationally these are "the amazing black belt" ranks. Above 1st/2nd Dan the level of instructors isn't generally always available to bring people further on technically.

If I'm a 5th+ dan who's been running a "McDojang" and I want to award 3rd dan, I'll just go ahead and take this Examiners course and continue to do what I've always been doing. What does this new process even fix, except to make "McDojang" owners (who are probably best positioned to even be able to afford this course anyway!) jump through a hoop?

That's assuming that McDojang instructors are of a high enough skill level to pass the course (not that I'm sure what standard will be required). You seem to be basing this on McDojang owners are a high rank/high skill but choose to turn out crap Taekwondoin in exchange for lots of money. They may be genuinely low-skilled who are churning out crap Taekwondoin because they don't know any better.

Making them attend this course, may help them realise a)how bad they are and b)what their students should be doing in order to meet the internationally set standard (and therefore how far behind they are, prompting them to improve).

Just a couple of points from my experience. Of course, there's no guarantee that the course won't be just a lip-service exercise and paperwork requirement...

 

[Gnarlie]

I will be very surprised if there is anything in this course that will be new to those of us who make an effort to stay current.

It would make more sense to audit first before such a course, to find out who actually needs to take the course and who doesn't.

It disappoints me that KKW feel they need to go down this road at all, given their lack of proactive support structure over the last decades for practitioners, rather than examiners. Basically just the textbook. Over my time in TKD I have been an advocate for KKW on many occasions as I believe in their standard even if their enforcement of it has been a bit shabby. Right now I still feel that the technical standard is a good thing, but I feel most disappointed that this step seems so poorly planned and rushed. 43 years of allowing people to misinterpret black and white pictures and word of mouth with no support, and then suddenly everybody has to stand by their beds inside of 6 months? Doesn't feel quite right.