Kukkiwon Promotion Rules changes

[WaterGal]

If you happen to have that large a community within a reasonable distance, sure.
For Dan promotions, we will invite a couple of the Moo Duk Kwan GM down, but they're only about 90 minutes away by car.
If we had to fly them in from another state and have a guarantee of XXX present for the promotion... the cost would certainly go up, for one thing.

That's true. There are enough KKW schools around here that getting enough masters together to make a panel wouldn't be a problem, assuming the examiner's class isn't a huge problem, but in an area with very few schools.... well, Kendo has this same problem, to go back to my earlier comparison - my state has one Kendo promotion every year, an hour drive away. That's not a good option for a neighborhood commercial TKD school.

What I'm hoping for is that the lowest level examiner course will be available as an online class, and the panels of judges for 1-3 dan/poom can basically organize themselves with some minimal oversight from KKW/USAT. I feel like that should be enough to make sure that everyone's on the same page, nobody's doing anything outright fraudulent, etc, without being too onerous on schools. If they want to have national tests for 4th dan and up, I think that's pretty reasonable. I mean, I think the huge concern is when you have masters (like some of those videos on another thread) who were promoted over and over and still don't know what they're doing and are teaching the wrong things to their students.

 

[andyjeffries]

Out of curiosity, is this a typo? It looks as if you can theoretically promote someone to the same rank you hold yourself.

It would be a first in Kukkiwon Taekwondo, but that's what I heard. Partially because it's a panel of 5 people of that grade all saying "yes, you are on our level". Remember for 3rd Dan+ they have to be performed by a panel of 5 people from these rules, so it's a group decision to say "yes, you are our equal".

 

[andyjeffries]

Actually, I didn't see your attachment where it is defined:

"1) Kukkiwon Branch - The Kukkiwon plan to set up one branch for each nation. The Kukkiwon can directly establish the overseas corporation or approve a MNA or local subsidiary as the Kukkiwon branch."

Much like Dirty Dog I'm a little cynical, but would appear this just increases the likelihood of politics at a local level?

It won't always be the MNA though and there may be flexibility in having more than one branch for each country, when it all finished up...

 

[andyjeffries]

Andy: The bigger questions here is the issue of standards. Most of us already know that the place with one of the biggest problems of standards today is Korea. If the Kukkiwon cannot implement good taekwondo standards in Korea, how can it do the same to the larger world? While trying to avoid making a general, sweeping statement I tend to think geup and dan rank testing; and indeed Kukki taekwondo standards, at a large number of dojang in the U.S, Canada and probably Mexico are far much better than those of many dojangs in Korea.

I think there is a different in understanding though. I would say a lot of 1st poom (let's face it, in Korea very few grade directly to 1st dan) in Korea are shocking in standards. However, that's because they see 1st poom as a beginner rank, not as the "almighty god-black-belt". If you look at most 4th Dan+ in Korea (which only takes 7 years to reach) they are generally really good.

So I think that's the system they're aiming for here - low dan they don't care about, but master rank and near-master should be tested by a panel of qualified examiners, not just masters.

 

[andyjeffries]

Andy: I doubt this will ever fly in the the U.S, which holds the 2nd largest number of Kukki taekwondo practitioners, masters and grandmaster in the world, behind Korea. Kukki style folks here -- as many, many, are already doing -- will stop recommending their dojang members for Kukkiwon certification and the Kukkiwon will suffer serious political, economic and international relations consequences. Kukkiwon taekwondoin here have enjoyed a level of freedom they will never be willing to give up. A group called the USTC six years ago tried to negotiate some exclusive pooom/dan recommendation status with the Kukkiwon and fell flat on its face. Some members of that group in Chicago are now trying to seize on this new Kukkiwon initiative and they too will never be able to hold sway over other Kukkiwon grandmastes and masters in the U.S.

I know what you're saying, and the Kukkiwon is very open about how much of its revenue comes from USA. There are enough masters/grandmasters in the US that getting a panel together for promotions will be easy enough. I don't know if this is a Europe-focused initiative at first, or if it's truly going global on step one; but either way I think it's clear that it's coming.

 

[andyjeffries]

or if they can do it as an online course, then fine. Otherwise, I think this is going to lead to a lot of people giving up on Kukkiwon promotions and a massive decline in the number of certs they're giving.

I agree with you. Online courses/promotions (as there is a physical and written test at the end of the course) is a whole-nother topic, but I do think that would be much easier.

I do think there's going to be a massive decline in the number of certs, which is a shame and will be a de-unification influence in Taekwondo. Maybe the Kukkiwon will be happy about that though - making it more of a gold-standard.

I'm also concerned about the lack of communication from Kukkiwon about this. This post on here was the first I've heard about this. We haven't received anything from Kukkiwon about it, and I can't find any info about it on their website or the USAT site.

I agree, I'd seen an early version of this document in one of my official roles with an organisation, but the first I heard of it officially was yesterday morning "here's a new policy, you have 9 months before we rip away your privileges of rank and there's a course to let you keep a little bit of them - here's the one date for that course before the rules come in, and it's in a different country".

They need to work on this more...

 

[Dirty Dog]

It would be a first in Kukkiwon Taekwondo, but that's what I heard. Partially because it's a panel of 5 people of that grade all saying "yes, you are on our level". Remember for 3rd Dan+ they have to be performed by a panel of 5 people from these rules, so it's a group decision to say "yes, you are our equal".

Not really a first...
Every 9th Dan promotion is a panel promoting to their own level, and every 10th Dan was a panel promoting ABOVE their own level.

 

[IcemanSK]

Not really a first...
Every 9th Dan promotion is a panel promoting to their own level, and every 10th Dan was a panel promoting ABOVE their own level.

10th Dan promotions are posthumous in Kukki-TKD. It would hard to have a panel of one's peers evalute for 10th Dan in that case.

 

[Dirty Dog]

10th Dan promotions are posthumous in Kukki-TKD. It would hard to have a panel of one's peers evalute for 10th Dan in that case.

Usually. Not always.
PARK Hae man and CHONG Soo Hung were both awarded 10th Dan while still alive, as I recall. I think there have been others, but these are off the top of my head.
I keep trivia there, since there's no hair...

 

[IcemanSK]

I know what you're saying, and the Kukkiwon is very open about how much of its revenue comes from USA. There are enough masters/grandmasters in the US that getting a panel together for promotions will be easy enough. I don't know if this is a Europe-focused initiative at first, or if it's truly going global on step one; but either way I think it's clear that it's coming.

When Kukkiwon did the Instructors Course in the US in 2009 (in two venues across the country) it was enjoyable because it was a unique thing for many of us who don't have easy abilty to go to Korea. Having this course be mandatory to test one's own students is a whole other issue. Those that have these new qualifications are likely to charge ridiculous fees for Kukkiwon because they can now get it. It won't make Kukkiwon a premium. It will devalue them immensely. This will not go over well in the US. Kukkiwon is going to see a huge negative shift.

 

[IcemanSK]

Usually. Not always.
PARK Hae man and CHONG Soo Hung were both awarded 10th Dan while still alive, as I recall. I think there have been others, but these are off the top of my head.
I keep trivia there, since there's no hair...

Are you sure that is the case for GM PARK? I've spoken to several high-ranking Chung Do Kwan folks who are his direct students and he's always been referred to as 9th Dan. Can you point me to a source for that?

 

[WaterGal]

I agree with you. Online courses/promotions (as there is a physical and written test at the end of the course) is a whole-nother topic, but I do think that would be much easier.

Oh, I didn't mean online TKD classes. I meant online classes in how to be an examiner, at least for the first level of examiner. Like how USAT has an online class to be an associate coach, and then you have to do a live class for the higher levels. I think that same approach could work for examiners, too.

I do think there's going to be a massive decline in the number of certs, which is a shame and will be a de-unification influence in Taekwondo. Maybe the Kukkiwon will be happy about that though - making it more of a gold-standard.

I'm sure they'll be happy to weed out the really bad schools whose students can't hack it. But they also need revenue to stay afloat. If large numbers of schools are walking away not because their students can't pass the test, but rather because the schools can't give the test - I think they'll revisit this.

I agree, I'd seen an early version of this document in one of my official roles with an organisation, but the first I heard of it officially was yesterday morning "here's a new policy, you have 9 months before we rip away your privileges of rank and there's a course to let you keep a little bit of them - here's the one date for that course before the rules come in, and it's in a different country".

They need to work on this more...

Yeah, this should be something rolled out over the next couple years, I think.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Are you sure that is the case for GM PARK? I've spoken to several high-ranking Chung Do Kwan folks who are his direct students and he's always been referred to as 9th Dan. Can you point me to a source for that?

No, I'm not entirely sure. Remember me saying it's off the top of my head?
I also seem to recall KIM Un Yong as being given a 10th Dan, and I think he's still alive too.
It's not something that's easy to find on the KKW site, so I'm strictly operating from my admittedly imperfect memory.

 

[andyjeffries]

Not really a first...
Every 9th Dan promotion is a panel promoting to their own level, and every 10th Dan was a panel promoting ABOVE their own level.

I meant at 6th Dan level specifically. Obv the top rank is by peers.

 

[andyjeffries]

No, I'm not entirely sure. Remember me saying it's off the top of my head?
I also seem to recall KIM Un Yong as being given a 10th Dan, and I think he's still alive too.
It's not something that's easy to find on the KKW site, so I'm strictly operating from my admittedly imperfect memory.

Kim Un Yong is an honourary 10th Dan, as is Juan Antonio Samaranch.

Are you sure that is the case for GM PARK? I've spoken to several high-ranking Chung Do Kwan folks who are his direct students and he's always been referred to as 9th Dan. Can you point me to a source for that?

Was he the one you weren't sure about when you posted him in your list in 2006 ;-) Kukkiwon 10th Dans...who are they MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community

 

[andyjeffries]

Oh, I didn't mean online TKD classes. I meant online classes in how to be an examiner, at least for the first level of examiner. Like how USAT has an online class to be an associate coach, and then you have to do a live class for the higher levels. I think that same approach could work for examiners, too.

I know you did and I agreed with you, but I know online training and certification for any aspect of a martial art is a hotly discussed topic...

 

[Dirty Dog]

Kim Un Yong is an honourary 10th Dan, as is Juan Antonio Samaranch.

Is there any other kind of KKW 10th Dan?

I know you did and I agreed with you, but I know online training and certification for any aspect of a martial art is a hotly discussed topic...

If the certification is about 'how to teach' as opposed to 'how to kick', I think an online program is entirely reasonable.

But as I said earlier, I think this program is more about "how to generate cash" than anything else. I do think it's likely to backfire, with schools opting out of issuing KKW certifications, but I think the goal is to increase cash flow.

 

[Archtkd]

But as I said earlier, I think this program is more about "how to generate cash" than anything else. I do think it's likely to backfire, with schools opting out of issuing KKW certifications, but I think the goal is to increase cash flow.

I agree with that, but I don't think the Kukkiwon is going to generate much revenue with that project in the long term. Also, there's no incentive for any high ranking independent dojang owner in the U.S. to have to rely on a bunch of other dojang owners to recommend his or her students for higher Kukkiwon promotion. If Kukki style dojang owners can already charge as much as a grand for low level in-house dan certificates, what's the incentive to agree to the new Kukkiwon project in which it's not clear how revenues (from promotion testing) will be shared?

 

[WaterGal]

If the certification is about 'how to teach' as opposed to 'how to kick', I think an online program is entirely reasonable.

Probably not even "how to teach", but how to set up and run the test, what to mark down for, etc.

Right now, in the US at least, schools all kinda do their own thing in terms of format and contents. But if we're going to do paneled judging with masters from different schools, then that's not going to work anymore - we'll need a specific set of common guidelines about how the test is set up and run, what exactly will be on it, and what the standards are.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Probably not even "how to teach", but how to set up and run the test, what to mark down for, etc.

That doesn't even require a class, online or not. Just a published, standardized curriculum. Sort of like already exists for KKW schools, which says "to get rank X, you need to be able to do A, B and C."

Right now, in the US at least, schools all kinda do their own thing in terms of format and contents. But if we're going to do paneled judging with masters from different schools, then that's not going to work anymore - we'll need a specific set of common guidelines about how the test is set up and run, what exactly will be on it, and what the standards are.

A set of common guidelines and standards already exists, although obviously schools do often add material beyond the basic requirements of the KKW. I think this is a good thing, personally.

Honestly, I think the only place this plan will work is a school large enough to have a promotion panel made up internally.
For the rest of us, I think the added cost of bringing in people from other areas means we will simply stop offering KKW certification. Or we will be forced to raise the price.

I honestly see this as a case of trying to fix something that isn't broken.