Kukkiwon Promotion Rules changes

[Jaeimseu]

I would say that yes, we do. Having experienced the Kukkiwon Master Instructor (with at least one of the fellow members of this board), the quality internationally is MUCH more variable than that in Korea. I would say the average international 1st/2nd Dan is better than the average Korean of the same rank; but above that the Korean standard is far better than international standard.

My understanding is that this is to be expected - Koreans view 1st/2nd Poom/Dan as a beginner rank with expectations accordingly, whereas internationally these are "the amazing black belt" ranks. Above 1st/2nd Dan the level of instructors isn't generally always available to bring people further on technically.



That's assuming that McDojang instructors are of a high enough skill level to pass the course (not that I'm sure what standard will be required). You seem to be basing this on McDojang owners are a high rank/high skill but choose to turn out crap Taekwondoin in exchange for lots of money. They may be genuinely low-skilled who are churning out crap Taekwondoin because they don't know any better.

Making them attend this course, may help them realise a)how bad they are and b)what their students should be doing in order to meet the internationally set standard (and therefore how far behind they are, prompting them to improve).

Just a couple of points from my experience. Of course, there's no guarantee that the course won't be just a lip-service exercise and paperwork requirement...

Like Andy, I have seen a wide difference in quality internationally. More than that though, I often see people come into the dojang from various countries, and their techniques are also quite different. The way they do poomsae is also very different. If we are going to have a Kukkiwon Taekwondo standard, it would be nice to have it actually be standard.

I think it will be extremely difficult to achieve this in the US. We have too many different tkd groups there. There is ITF and "ITF", Kukkiwon and "Kukkiwon." And there are many people who offer Kukkiwon certs without even attempting to teach Kukkiwon curriculum.

I think the move could be beneficial, but I agree that it seems rushed and poorly planned. Finally, I think many instructors will refuse to change to the standard, and are likely to walk away when their students can't promote rather than admit to being "wrong."


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[andyjeffries]

I think the move could be beneficial, but I agree that it seems rushed and poorly planned.

Agree 100% mate. If they announced a 3-5 year plan to get people qualified and educated, I don't think there'd be any/many complaints.

Finally, I think many instructors will refuse to change to the standard, and are likely to walk away when their students can't promote rather than admit to being "wrong."

For quite a few I don't even see it as being that. One of my goals is to pass on Taekwondo as 100% accurately as I can, without diluting it. However, while up until now I've been able to promote people to Kukkiwon 4th Dan, after these rules come in I'll only be able to promote people to Kukkiwon 2nd Dan. The reason is that while I have a Master Instructor licence from Kukkiwon, my KKW 6th Dan won't take effect until January (after the course), so I can't get a 2nd Class Examiner certificate. So, in all likelihood I'll issue KKW up to 2nd Dan and kwan-rank above that. There are others who have higher dan than me, but they don't have a Master Instructor licence so they'll be the same boat, only get a 3rd Class Examiner certificate so above 2nd Dan will do their own thing.

I don't feel like I'm "wrong", I feel like I'm teaching things the right way, but still will suddenly be restricted from promoting candidates above a certain rank (but below the rank that I've been used to).

Even worse than that, I've been able to promote to 5th Dan CMK (and from January when my 7th Dan CMK takes effect it'll be up to 6th Dan for candidates), so to suddenly drop to only promoting to 2nd Dan isn't about me admitting to being wrong, it's about the rug being pulled out from under me.

P.S. James, I didn't take it as a personal attack although I can see my response may read as if I thought it was. Just explaining why I don't think it's about people being wrong, but the rules change affects those of us trying to teach Taekwondo the right way as much as those who don't.

 

[Jaeimseu]

Agree 100% mate. If they announced a 3-5 year plan to get people qualified and educated, I don't think there'd be any/many complaints.



For quite a few I don't even see it as being that. One of my goals is to pass on Taekwondo as 100% accurately as I can, without diluting it. However, while up until now I've been able to promote people to Kukkiwon 4th Dan, after these rules come in I'll only be able to promote people to Kukkiwon 2nd Dan. The reason is that while I have a Master Instructor licence from Kukkiwon, my KKW 6th Dan won't take effect until January (after the course), so I can't get a 2nd Class Examiner certificate. So, in all likelihood I'll issue KKW up to 2nd Dan and kwan-rank above that. There are others who have higher dan than me, but they don't have a Master Instructor licence so they'll be the same boat, only get a 3rd Class Examiner certificate so above 2nd Dan will do their own thing.

I don't feel like I'm "wrong", I feel like I'm teaching things the right way, but still will suddenly be restricted from promoting candidates above a certain rank (but below the rank that I've been used to).

Even worse than that, I've been able to promote to 5th Dan CMK (and from January when my 7th Dan CMK takes effect it'll be up to 6th Dan for candidates), so to suddenly drop to only promoting to 2nd Dan isn't about me admitting to being wrong, it's about the rug being pulled out from under me.

P.S. James, I didn't take it as a personal attack although I can see my response may read as if I thought it was. Just explaining why I don't think it's about people being wrong, but the rules change affects those of us trying to teach Taekwondo the right way as much as those who don't.

I agree with you completely. I didn't mean to imply that what I wrote was the only issue. I think this plan is shortsighted precisely because of what you bring up. People are not going to suspend promotions that they've always been able to do because of a sudden technical rule change, especially if they are already following the Kukkiwon standard.


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[andyjeffries]

Well, I head off to the European Dan Examiner course in the morning. I won't be "live blogging" here, if I hear anything important I'll try to pop back on and post it, but failing that will blog a diary on my website when I get back and link to it from here.

 

[andyjeffries]

I just wrote the below on Facebook, I'm not going to post my full diary until I've got home and edited it on a full screen, but thought the post below may help some people...


Feeling much more positive about the new Kukkiwon promotion stuff coming in. It seems they want educated examiners. They are happy for instructors to continue to test their own students going forward. The panels talk that everyone is complaining about, is to stop students from jumping around between instructors to get the best price/easiest test.

They want reliable, trained instructors to test their students - if the student wants to test away from their instructor (or to the same rank as their instructor, hence it's not possible under them), then they should go in front of a panel not just someone else. So it's an either/or, not an "everything is going to independent panels" as the rumours are saying.

I asked the translator/instructor specifically about this and recorded the audio of his answer. Very nice guy. So, panic over, hopefully as more people attend these courses, the rumours will die down. Looking forward to the morning - practical day. Hope my torn cartilage in my knee holds up for 10 hours of training!

 

[Dirty Dog]

So our KJN is a KKW 8th Dan. Will he, or will he not, be able to promote our students without importing additional judges to our school?

 

[Archtkd]

So our KJN is a KKW 8th Dan. Will he, or will he not, be able to promote our students without importing additional judges to our school?

Dirty Dog. The project is not happening in the U.S. PM me your e-mail

 

[andyjeffries]

So our KJN is a KKW 8th Dan. Will he, or will he not, be able to promote our students without importing additional judges to our school?

I spoke this evening to a different instructor on the course. He confirmed that once you have this course, you can still promote your students to one Dan below yourself. The panel stuff is if you can't grade your students or want to send them. I then also spoke to another 8th Dan kkw (and now 1st class examiner) and kkw told him he can still promote people in the same way as before now he's certified.

 

[TrueJim]

Any clarity yet on the question: how will Kukkiwon verify that somebody is "your" student?

I was speaking with the head of our school this morning, passing along what you said about how part of the intent is to keep people from "shopping around" for easy promotions. He confirmed that as a 7th dan he gets asked all the time for "special tests" -- of course he doesn't do it. Still, it shows how naive I am...I was and am surprised that that problem exists.

 

[andyjeffries]

Any clarity yet on the question: how will Kukkiwon verify that somebody is "your" student?

Unfortunately not, but there hasn't been much of a question/answer session. I've kept asking the important one (about promotion ranks) because that's the one that has most people grabbing their pitchforks. I think the answer is that they won't verify it, but by eventually ensuring that all examiners have done this course, and drilled it in to all of us, we'll know not to do it.

 

[Dominator]

Dirty Dog. The project is not happening in the U.S. PM me your e-mail

This is very good news. Not that I'd have a problem with being tested by a panel or sending students to test in front of one, but it's one of those situations where our school is up to/above KKW standards. This is something that would have been more of a blow to schools with good standards. I think most high Dan guys would just keep handing out school degree certs and belts anyway and charging a fortune. It's actually kind of funny that KKW is worried about certs being just thrown around when there are so many people out there that won't promote to keep a monopoly in their area.

 

[Dominator]

Any clarity yet on the question: how will Kukkiwon verify that somebody is "your" student?

I was speaking with the head of our school this morning, passing along what you said about how part of the intent is to keep people from "shopping around" for easy promotions. He confirmed that as a 7th dan he gets asked all the time for "special tests" -- of course he doesn't do it. Still, it shows how naive I am...I was and am surprised that that problem exists.

I actually know of guys who somehow "convince" Grandmasters to host them for Dan promotions. I get it that sometimes it's necessary to do so but I'm talking about guys who quit out at 1st Dan (or lower) and started their own schools. That's just wrong on so many levels. I don't know how it is around the world or even in other regions of the US, but in my state it's pretty hard to obtain anything above a 2nd unless you are damn good or training at one of two belt mills.

 

[mattktkd]

I believe this course is a great idea. It will make Taekwondo less of a joke to people who don't do the sport. Most non martial artist see Taekwondo as the easiest sport to get a black belt in, some schools saying it can take less then 2 years to earn a taekwondo blackbelt. You also have to realize that there are always small changes being done to patterns, my master just took the course when it was offered out in Ohio. He was one of the youngest masters on the floor. But, he learned that Kukkiwon patterns have changed a lot since he learned them and began teaching them. I now (a fourth dan) have to go back and re teach myself certain movements because were doing the patterns as they did back in the early 90s.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I believe this course is a great idea. It will make Taekwondo less of a joke to people who don't do the sport. Most non martial artist see Taekwondo as the easiest sport to get a black belt in, some schools saying it can take less then 2 years to earn a taekwondo blackbelt. You also have to realize that there are always small changes being done to patterns, my master just took the course when it was offered out in Ohio. He was one of the youngest masters on the floor. But, he learned that Kukkiwon patterns have changed a lot since he learned them and began teaching them. I now (a fourth dan) have to go back and re teach myself certain movements because were doing the patterns as they did back in the early 90s.

Teaching more than the sport side would go much further towards changing the public perception of TKD.

 

[Dominator]

I believe this course is a great idea. It will make Taekwondo less of a joke to people who don't do the sport. Most non martial artist see Taekwondo as the easiest sport to get a black belt in, some schools saying it can take less then 2 years to earn a taekwondo blackbelt. You also have to realize that there are always small changes being done to patterns, my master just took the course when it was offered out in Ohio. He was one of the youngest masters on the floor. But, he learned that Kukkiwon patterns have changed a lot since he learned them and began teaching them. I now (a fourth dan) have to go back and re teach myself certain movements because were doing the patterns as they did back in the early 90s.

I know what you mean about the changes. The school I came up through still teaches poomsae at 90s standards. I had to "relearn" every single one last year and now seeing the more "traditional" style kinda makes me cringe because that could still be me.

Teaching more than the sport side would go much further towards changing the public perception of TKD.

That would be nice. The biggest problem is that there are so many differing opinions on how to throw even the most basic kicks and punches. It's hard enough to get everyone one the same page for poomsae and sparring.

 

[Dirty Dog]

That would be nice. The biggest problem is that there are so many differing opinions on how to throw even the most basic kicks and punches.

No, there really are not. If you're studying in a KKW school, then the KKW defines the "proper" way to throw those kicks and punches. Same for an ITF school, or a Moo Duk Kwan school, or a Jido Kwan school, etc etc etc. These standards have been clearly defined since the 1950's (or earlier). I do not believe there have been any major changes.

It's hard enough to get everyone one the same page for poomsae and sparring.

No, it's not. Lots of arts have been doing so for decades. With forms that are, frankly, much more complicated than those taught in TKD. And with sparring rules that allow the use of a much larger portion of the art being taught.
If you think it's 'too hard' to teach to a standard while still teaching the entire art (as opposed to just the sporting aspects) then perhaps you're part of the reason why TKD has an image problem.

 

[Rmedina]

Here's another update posted to the taekwondo subreddit.

Letter from USAT Bruce Harris to Kukkiwon • /r/taekwondo

http://www.codla.org/attachments/September 2013 Case Law Update.pdf

U.S. taekwondo Committee v. Kukkiwon—Court of Appeals nds no FSIA immunity in commercial transaction (CA 07/03/13). Kukkiwon is a South Korean organization that promotes the martial art of Taekwondo. It initially existed as a nongovernmental entity, and so constituted, it contracted with plaintiffs U.S. Taekwondo Committee and U.S. Kukkiwon, making plaintiffs its overseas branch in the United States. Shortly after the contract with plaintiffs was formed, the South Korean government passed a law making Kukkiwon a “special corporation,” and giving the South Korean Minister of Culture, Sports, and Tourism authority over several of Kukkiwon’s activities. Subsequently, Kukkiwon noti ed plaintiffs that it was unilaterally cancelling the contract, and plaintiffs led this action for breach. Plaintiffs contended that the Court of Appeals lacked jurisdiction to determine this appeal because it was interlocutory. An interlocutory appeal from a ruling denying Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act (FSIA) immunity is immediately reviewable as a “ nal judgment,” pursuant to CRS § 13-4-102(1). Therefore, the Court had appellate jurisdiction to review this issue. On the other hand, it did not have the authority to review a related act of state doctrine ruling, because it did not have pendent appellate jurisdiction. Defendant argued that the trial court erred in nding that it did not have FSIA immunity. FSIA is a federal statute that provides immunity to any “agency or instrumentality” of a foreign state unless, as pertinent here, the claim is based on “commercial activity.” The contract at issue here constituted commercial activity because it made plaintiffs an overseas branch of Kukkiwon and contemplated activity in the United States that could create revenue and pro ts. Therefore, defendants were not entitled to FSIA immunity.

 

[Dirty Dog]

OK... maybe I'm just stupid, but what does this lawsuit have to do with the KKW changing the rules on promotions?

 

[Rmedina]

OK... maybe I'm just stupid, but what does this lawsuit have to do with the KKW changing the rules on promotions?

They must fallow the U.S. protocol i.e. federal and local business rules is all about money)

 

[WaterGal]

Let me see if I've got this right. Kukkiwon America (or US Kukkiwon or whatever they're calling themselves) is suing Kukkiwon because Kukkiwon wants to cancel the agreement with them for them to be the US national branch, on account of Kukkiwon now being basically part of the South Korean government rather than an NGO and can no longer legally engage in the kind of agreement they had made. Do I have that right?

Are you saying that this lawsuit is why Kukkiwon America/WTMU is being so opaque about what's going on with the rule changes?