Kukkiwon Promotion Rules changes

[IcemanSK]

Kim Un Yong is an honourary 10th Dan, as is Juan Antonio Samaranch.


Was he the one you weren't sure about when you posted him in your list in 2006 ;-) Kukkiwon 10th Dans...who are they MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community

Yeah, I've since learned otherwise regarding both GMs PARK & UHM. Dr. KIM Un Young & Samerach (sp?) were given 10th Dans for their contributions to TKD, but I don't know how long the list is of other living folks given that honor.

I did read that GM LEE Chong Woo, JiDo Kwan legend was awarded Kukkiwon 10th Dan upon his death last week.

 

[andyjeffries]

Is there any other kind of KKW 10th Dan?

Yes, those two were given to non-Taekwondoin (as far as I know Dr Kim wasn't a high dan in Taekwondo, he was a business leader) as a recognition of their help in promoting Taekwondo.

The other type is a regularly promoted type of 10th Dan, as mentioned in the Kukkiwon rules and given to other existing 9th Dans.

 

[andyjeffries]

Yeah, I've since learned otherwise regarding both GMs PARK & UHM. Dr. KIM Un Young & Samerach (sp?) were given 10th Dans for their contributions to TKD, but I don't know how long the list is of other living folks given that honor.

I did read that GM LEE Chong Woo, JiDo Kwan legend was awarded Kukkiwon 10th Dan upon his death last week.

Yeah, I read that too. Such a shame!

 

[TrueJim]

I'm also concerned about the lack of communication from Kukkiwon about this. This post on here was the first I've heard about this. We haven't received anything from Kukkiwon about it, and I can't find any info about it on their website or the USAT site.

Here's a nightmare scenario...some schools don't get the memo, they give their Black Belt tests like normal, only to discover that the tests have to be re-done! Can you imagine being the Black Belt candidate who's told he/she has to re-take their Black Belt test? Oy!

 

[andyjeffries]

Here's a nightmare scenario...some schools don't get the memo, they give their Black Belt tests like normal, only to discover that the tests have to be re-done! Can you imagine being the Black Belt candidate who's told he/she has to re-take their Black Belt test? Oy!

At the moment this email seems to have gone out to only some members, I'm sure by the time the rules are live it will have been sent to all KMS members. Only then people who still send in paperwork (the older generation) won't be aware of it.

But you're right, that would be a nightmare.

 

[IcemanSK]

I spoke (via email) with an American who went to the examiner's course in July at Taekwondowon. My take is that this will be very hard to implement in the US because we are so spread out & it will be very hard to get enough people trained in every part of the US to make this viable. Even in relatively small cities (let's say St. Lous, MO where ArchTKD is) 5 or 10 examiners (that St. Louis may be able to send for training in a year: in a perfect world) would not be enough to test everyone who wanted to test in a given year. As ArchTKD pointed out, those 5-10 examiners could charge outrageous fees that wouldn't make it viable to student or master.

Kukkiwon only invited 200 masters from around the world to their examiners training in July. There is little info about it on the web. It does seem as if the European Courses are a test to check viability. This seems like a soft roll-out to see how it's received. This makes me wonder (and I'm completely guessing here, so take it FWIW) if this kind of thing was why GM LEE Kyu Hyung did not stay as Kukkiwon president very long.

 

[TrueJim]

Yah, if Grandmaster Lee thought Kukkiwon politics were bad before, this seems to me like it has the potential to worsen the politics exponentially. They're artificially creating a constrained resource (testers), so that alone would make the politics worse. Then you add-in the inequity factor (that this hits rural areas far harder than large cities), and that will make tons of schools all around the world feel disenfranchised. The you add-in the inevitable cost increases for both the testers and the people being tested (the money to make all this happen has to come from somewhere, and I don't see how it won't fall on the backs of the people being tested), making the tension even worse. Then you add in the fact that you're creating new organizations that likely have somewhat different priorities than the Kukkiwon itself, creating more opportunity for push-back in multiple directions for anything the Kukkiwon tries to do from now on. It's hard to see the upside of this.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Yes, those two were given to non-Taekwondoin (as far as I know Dr Kim wasn't a high dan in Taekwondo, he was a business leader) as a recognition of their help in promoting Taekwondo.

The other type is a regularly promoted type of 10th Dan, as mentioned in the Kukkiwon rules and given to other existing 9th Dans.

Seems to be a fair bit of hair splitting.
Given that all 10th Dan are "service" awards, that would seem to make them all honorary, to my way of thinking.

But this is off topic, so I won't make any further posts on this sub-thread.




Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.

 

[WaterGal]

That doesn't even require a class, online or not. Just a published, standardized curriculum. Sort of like already exists for KKW schools, which says "to get rank X, you need to be able to do A, B and C."

A set of common guidelines and standards already exists, although obviously schools do often add material beyond the basic requirements of the KKW. I think this is a good thing, personally.

I think it's a good thing, too, but I also think it's also unfeasible if we go this route. If a state USAT branch organizes monthly dan tests, or multiple schools in your area get together to do a joint test (I think those are the most likely two options for how this will go down), then there has to be one standard for everybody. No extra material. There is a loss in that, I think, but it could create a stronger inter-school TKD community, which could be a gain, too.

However, any of this is only feasible for areas with multiple KKW masters. Schools that are in isolated areas (or countries) where there isn't a big TKD presence will probably be unable to do dan gradings at all.

 

[Archtkd]

If a state USAT branch organizes monthly dan tests, or multiple schools in your area get together to do a joint test (I think those are the most likely two options for how this will go down), then there has to be one standard for everybody. No extra material. There is a loss in that, I think, but it could create a stronger inter-school TKD community, which could be a gain, too.

I shudder to think of a scenario in which dojang owners in the U.S would be forced to take their students to some mass dan/poom testing events at the "state headquarters," like they have in some countries -- the very thing that has destroyed standards. In said mass testings, taekwondoin are paraded like hogs or cows waiting for slaughter and hastily put through tests that last 10 minutes, often observed by judges who really don't care. This kind of thing was the subject of an academic research paper I read last years, in which the author, a Korean taekwondoin, was decrying the lack of standards in mass dan/poom tests in Korea.

 

[andyjeffries]

This kind of thing was the subject of an academic research paper I read last years, in which the author, a Korean taekwondoin, was decrying the lack of standards in mass dan/poom tests in Korea.

I don't suppose you still have that research paper available do you, I'd love to read it!

 

[Archtkd]

I don't suppose you still have that research paper available do you, I'd love to read it!

Andy: I will dig it up for you. It might have been presented at the symposium you attended in Seoul or a later one.

 

[Archtkd]

I don't suppose you still have that research paper available do you, I'd love to read it!

Andy: The specific paper is: Taekwondo Certification Test as a “Rite of Passage” and it was authored by Hyeong-Seok Song , and Jae-Jun Kim Dept. of the Taekwondo, College of Physical Education, Keimyung University, Korea. It was pressented at the The 4th International Symposium for Taekwondo Studies, Puebla, Mexico, in 2013, during the WTF World Taekwondo Championships. An abstract of the study can be found here: http://www.jiatr.org/data/2013_mexico.pdf . In fact anybody interested in reading lot's of cool stuff on Kukki taekwondo research should vistit the International Association For Taekwondo Research web site: at The International Association for Taekwondo Research IATR .

Some of the conclusions of the dan testing study in questions where: " The present research revealed that the Taekwondo certification test in Korea is held in unsuitable environments, judges were not wearing the same uniforms, and the uniforms of the participants were not classified according to their level.
Moreover special events were not offered in most cases except for a small number of test districts. The majority of the test was composed of poomsae and sparring, and the duration of each test was only two to five minutes because of the large number of candidates at the test. Since thousands of students were tested in one day, the certification test had to be held in a large gymnasium, and the time allowed for each test was limited. For these reasons, the place for the certification test was very noisy and distracting, and the running of the ceremony was disorganized."

 

[WaterGal]

I shudder to think of a scenario in which dojang owners in the U.S would be forced to take their students to some mass dan/poom testing events at the "state headquarters," like they have in some countries -- the very thing that has destroyed standards. In said mass testings, taekwondoin are paraded like hogs or cows waiting for slaughter and hastily put through tests that last 10 minutes, often observed by judges who really don't care. This kind of thing was the subject of an academic research paper I read last years, in which the author, a Korean taekwondoin, was decrying the lack of standards in mass dan/poom tests in Korea.

Hmmm, that's disappointing. I've seen some pretty shoddy school tests, but that sounds worse. I wonder if this move by KKW is actually meant to address the "judges who don't really care" part, by making them do this class?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Hmmm, that's disappointing. I've seen some pretty shoddy school tests, but that sounds worse. I wonder if this move by KKW is actually meant to address the "judges who don't really care" part, by making them do this class?

I'd say that "judges who don't really care" is the single group most likely NOT to take it. Followed closely by those who, if they want to offer KKW certification, will be forced to jack up the price in order to support the outside Masters they will have to bring in.

 

[Metal]

I gotta say that I was shocked when I saw a Korean Kukkiwon mass testing video for the first time, yet that won't mean that it'll be the same outside of Korea once the new Kukkiwon grading systems comes into place. In Germany we have regional 'mass' Dan gradings (for the national DTU Dan where you can also get your Kukkiwon certification) and people are being tested in groups of four and the totaler number of examinees goes up to 100. Some of the German regional and national examiners (right now all people close to Park Soo Nam who will run the German branch of Kukkiwon) now took the Kukkiwon Dan Grading course in Korea in order to still be active as examiners in the future and I doubt that anyone of those will lower their standards when it comes to testing.

Regarding fees, I doubt that prices will go up for those who already pay outrageous fees to their 'masters'. Those masters may raise their monthly training fee in order to compensate the income they usually had from Kukkiwon gradings though. When it comes to the DTU (German Taekwondo Union) I'm pretty sure that they'll do everything in order to keep the prices low and reasonable.

Plus the PDF document that Andy listed shows the fees:

1st Dan 70 US$
2nd Dan 90 US$
3rd Dan 120 US$
4th Dan 150 US$
5th Dan 300 US$
6th Dan 350 US$
7th Dan 400 US$




Will there be any benefits?

I would say yes when it comes to minimum standards (at least here in Germany I'm optimistic when I look who's involved in the local Kukkiwon branch) and hope that tests like this won't happen anymore:

I mean, kids are kids and not everyone wants to concentrate on Poomsae, but at least get the Poomsae right and know what's a block and what's a punch. The video is above is a clear example of "Let them pass so that their parents don't take 'em to another school". And I guess tests like those are one of the reasons for Kukkiwon to introduce the new grading policiy.

 

[WaterGal]

I'd say that "judges who don't really care" is the single group most likely NOT to take it.

Well, right. So people who don't really care won't be judges anymore, which hopefully would raise the overall quality of big multi-school tests, if that's the route we're going.

But then we're back to the question of: in places like the US that are very spread out, will there even be enough qualified judges in every area to support having that kind of test? In metropolitan areas, where you might have 10+ KKW schools in one county, it shouldn't be a huge problem. But in more rural areas, it would be impossible.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Well, right. So people who don't really care won't be judges anymore,

No, they'll just be giving out in house certificates, mostly to people who don't know the difference. Just as they likely do now.

which hopefully would raise the overall quality of big multi-school tests, if that's the route we're going.

Why would it do that? You assume, firstly, that there is a deficiency in the quality of these tests now. An assumption that has yet to be proven.
And you ignore, secondly, the evidence that "big multi-school tests", such as are given NOW, at the KKW itself, have lower standards than most of us apply.

But then we're back to the question of: in places like the US that are very spread out, will there even be enough qualified judges in every area to support having that kind of test? In metropolitan areas, where you might have 10+ KKW schools in one county, it shouldn't be a huge problem. But in more rural areas, it would be impossible.

Which is why I see this as likely to decrease the number of schools issuing KKW certificates. The cost of transporting and hosting Masters from other areas, plus providing them with an honorarium (there's no delusion that people are going to go do these tests for free, is there?) will be prohibitive.

 

[WaterGal]

Why would it do that? You assume, firstly, that there is a deficiency in the quality of these tests now. An assumption that has yet to be proven.
And you ignore, secondly, the evidence that "big multi-school tests", such as are given NOW, at the KKW itself, have lower standards than most of us apply.

I think you've totally misunderstood what I was trying to say. I changed topics a bit and I think maybe I was unclear about that, so let me try again.

You've said is that the quality of big national/regional tests like they do at KKW is often not very good, because a lot of examiners on the panels don't care and just rush people through rather than grading them properly.

So my thought is this. This move by Kukkiwon - to require examiners to take a class before they can be a judge at an event like that - may be an attempt to correct that problem. If the examiners at KKW etc are better qualified after taking this course (and the apathetic/lazy ones don't bother with it and quit being judges), it may raise the overall standards of those big national/regional tests. The ones that currently have a low standard.

I think, as Americans (those of us that are Americans), we've been thinking about how this impacts the US, and whether this is a result of something done by masters in the US. I know I was. But it might have nothing at all to do with that.

Now, that still doesn't address the problem of how this will (or even could, if they're trying to start this next year!) be implemented in places like the US where testing is not currently done that way, and where that kind of testing may or may not even be feasible.

 

[TrueJim]

FYI, some of you may have already seen this on the taekwondo subreddit:

Kukkiwon_Letter_FINAL_7_OCT_15.pdf - DocDroid