Kukkiwon pending

[NPTKD]

It comes from TKD.net and I know somebody that is able to talk about the gentlemen with the rally cry for help.

I,m having a hard time finding it... A webstore comes up... could you link it for me? thanks....

 

[dortiz]

http://lists.bluewaves.org/mailman/listinfo/taekwondo-net

Dave O.

 

[dancingalone]

The lawsuit seems rather lame to me, but honestly you're open to this kind of garbage when you become a worldwide business enterprise as the KKW is. I said in a prior post months ago that I prefer my martial arts to be familial and intimate. I still see no reason to change my mind...

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The lawsuit seems rather lame to me, but honestly you're open to this kind of garbage when you become a worldwide business enterprise as the KKW is. I said in a prior post months ago that I prefer my martial arts to be familial and intimate. I still see no reason to change my mind...

Pretty much my opinion.

I will refrain from making blanket statements about people who seek a skip dan; I am not in their shoes. But aside from needing to be 4th dan or higher to either certify black belts or be a certified instructor, who cares?

Skipping from second to fourth, fifth to seventh, first to third, or whatever changes nothing of your skill, technique or teaching ability. This guy, whoever he is, is

1. still of the same quality he was before the test.
2. His wallet, on the other hand is not.

If they hand him a shiny new belt and cert, neither of those two facts change. If he was hoping to be able to now sign off on KKW certs and go to the instructors course and become a KKW certified instructor, a 4th dan or higher rank will enable him to do that. But as I said, it still does not change who he is or the quality of his skill as a practitioner or teacher (if he is a teacher).

Also, to bring the discussion between TF and NPTKD into this, his rank may be KKW recognized, but is still only important within his own school and to a lesser extent, within KKW TKD.

A blackbelt of any degree from another KKW school may know the essential KKW material up to their rank or may know Palgwe forms, grapples, and some Muay Thai, may or may not compete, and may or may not have any teaching skill. He or she may simply be of their rank because they kept showing up and paying fees, but have no ability on the mat. I have seen some pretty sorry looking guys who claim to be fourth dan. I have also seen some pretty amazing guys who just earned their first dan.

In the end, what matters most is not the cert from the KKW but the training you have received from your school. In that regard, rank from your instructor and school is much more telling. Did you learn from a lousy fourth dan who collects your fees and passes you no matter how bad you are or did you learn from a very good but unaffiliated blackbelt who would not pass you until you got it right and took the time to do all of the detail work to make you a fine practitioner?

Orgs are a nice way to have an external certification, and the KKW is a good org for such. But to ask to go from second to sixth dan at a special test and then sue because they will not answer a question is just silly. Perhaps he should have tested at the appropriate times and taken his lumps like the rest of us.

Personally, I would love to be handed a nice shiney 6th dan cert. I did start out in karate and taekwondo when I was a kid, so why not? Well, I took breaks in training and most importantly, I did not test. That is not the KKW's fault. And that piece of paper will not make me one bit better than I currently am. I have people ask if I am a higher rank than I currently am. I tell them no. That is preferrable to being fourth dan and people wondering who the heck passed me.

Daniel

 

[miguksaram]

He paid to skip Dan from a second to a 6th like that was going to happen.

Which makes me wonder why USAT even allowed this application to go through. It was my understanding they were the ones who were screening all applicants. This should have been rejected right away.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Who are you....

He is their instructor and is in the best possible position to know if the student has both the skill and the maturity to be promoted.

Personally, I think that a better question is 'who is the KKW? What contact have they had with the student? Did the student earn his or her first dan at the Kukkiwon in Korea? What do they know of TF's students? Or yours for that matter? Only what you tell them by signing that paper. I have seen way too many eighteen year olds with sloppy technique and multiple stripes on their belt for me to believe that the Kukkiwon is particularly meticulous or that most KKW instructors are particularly meticulous in their dan gradings.

...and do you tell your students what a school cert really means? I went down that road along time ago with a korean grandmaster. Then when i opened my school only to find out later that the dan was only a school dan. i know that there are alot of people who start in the martial arts who really don't know what they are getting them selves into.

You and many others. But when you opened your own school, how did having a dojo dan affect you? Did you believe that you were certified by an organization? Certainly, one can open a school without a big org. TF has, you apparently did as well, albeit not intentionally. How did not having a big org affect your school? Not picking at you; just curious.

Let me ask you a question: what if one of your students whats more.... Like their own school, who gives rank for his students.

The student, who is now the school owner, would promote his or her students. Same as any other independent. Or they could defer to TF, assuming that he even wants that level of involvement in a student's school. Or they could join an org if they so desired.

And what if one of you students moves to a new town... Does your rank carry over or do they have to start over again?

Same as with a KKW dan if you go to a non KKW school: they would either evaluate the student and rank them accordingly, let them wear their belt and not promote them until they have learned the material up to their rank and for the next rank, or make them wear a white belt and start fresh.

Portable rank is nice, but portable skills are better. And it is the latter that TF is most interested in.

I mean if your telling them (not only if they ask,because most don't know any better) that what they are getting is only good in your school?

I would bet money that he gives them a speach about the evils of big orgs.

Please understand that I am not racking on the Kukkiwon. I do feel that they provide a worthwhile service and in a commercial setting, being able to tell a student that their rank is recognized outside of your school is a good selling point. But it is certainly not a requirement for a financially successful school. Most likely, a business degree is more helpful in that area.

Daniel

 

[NPTKD]

Okay here we go...
First, I opened by school had no problems with the school dan.. Until I tried to enter my students into some local tournaments. Not only did we do different forms that were not KKW but we (I) got a lot of crap from other instructors about the whole KKw thing. My school has always done well and I really didn't need to change anything, but I felt that if I were to do the same thing that my master did to me to one of my students... well it just wouldn't be right! So I took the time to go to seminars, take private classes from some of my peers and change the whole school over to KKW. Now on my side of it I had to reapply for my fifth under AAU to get my USAT and retest in Vegas to get my KKW. I wasn't cheap to get something that I already had. But I feel that it was worth it. As far as telling my students they understand the differenace between a school dan and KKW. As a school owner I could have just made the dan myself and kept the money. But even with your opion of the KKW I bet if you gave your student an educated chioce ( for the same price) they would take the KKW.
But after all I have done... Seeing the quailty of some of the higher dan testers in vegas... I should have never doubted myself and my ability. Just like twin fist.. I don't need the KKW or any onter ORG. to tell me I'm good...But when your a teacher isn't not all about you.


Tim

 

[NPTKD]

But it is certainly not a requirement for a financially successful school. Most likely, a business degree is more helpful in that area.



This isn't about money!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Firstly, I appreciate you responding.

Okay here we go...
First, I opened by school had no problems with the school dan.. Until I tried to enter my students into some local tournaments. Not only did we do different forms that were not KKW but we (I) got a lot of crap from other instructors about the whole KKw thing.

Organizations tend to benefit the competative athlete the most. They are definitely good at keeping you in the loop and they do provide an established and recognized curriculum.

My school has always done well and I really didn't need to change anything, but I felt that if I were to do the same thing that my master did to me to one of my students... well it just wouldn't be right!

Still not clear; did he simply never tell you the difference between a dojo dan and a KKW dan or did he actually lie and tell you that you had an organizational rank?

So I took the time to go to seminars, take private classes from some of my peers and change the whole school over to KKW. Now on my side of it I had to reapply for my fifth under AAU to get my USAT and retest in Vegas to get my KKW. I wasn't cheap to get something that I already had. But I feel that it was worth it.

And you have my respect for doing so! And I think that your dedication and desire to do things by the book, so to speak, speaks very highly of you.

As far as telling my students they understand the differenace between a school dan and KKW. As a school owner I could have just made the dan myself and kept the money. But even with your opion of the KKW I bet if you gave your student an educated chioce (for the same price) they would take the KKW.

But that assumes that it would be the same price. The only fee that I as an independent would charge for is the cost of the belt. KKW registration is 120.00, if I recall. Most BB tests in TKD are substantially more than that due to the school charging money over and above. The average seems to be between three and five hundred dollars. Cost of a belt and a cert is certainly less than a hundred. Either way, as an independent, I would be charging a lot less. And yes, I would be very sure that they understood that their grade is a dojo grade, not one from a big org.

But after all I have done... Seeing the quailty of some of the higher dan testers in vegas... I should have never doubted myself and my ability. Just like twin fist.. I don't need the KKW or any onter ORG. to tell me I'm good...But when your a teacher isn't not all about you.

And you are to be commended for your attitude and accomplishments!

But some, such as TF, feel that the org is actually a disservice to the student. I do not share that belief, but there are many who do and who teach on a nonprofit or even volunteer basis and who do what they do soley for love of the art and for the benefit of their students.

Again, I do appreciate your response, and while I may not be your student, I do very much appreciate that a gent like yourself is out there teaching!

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

But it is certainly not a requirement for a financially successful school. Most likely, a business degree is more helpful in that area.



This isn't about money!

No, but I was not thinking of you specifically when I said that (sorry).

I was merely stating that one of the benefits of having organizational affiliation is in marketing one's product. There are, obviously, other benefits to Kukkwon certification.

Daniel

 

[NPTKD]

One last thing.. I belong to AAU, Univeral Martial Arts Assoc, Ko Am Du Do.. Their great, but I want to do more things.. Like become an International referee, do competition poomsae and who knows I might move over seas some day. I wanted a org. that would carry my rank to where every I go. Thats it... just give people the chioce. I don't beleave in you get my dan and for a couple of hundred more you can get this or that dan. that's wrong. An a student shouldn't find out 10 years down the road that if they want a KKW they have to start over and wait to get some thing that they already got through hard work.....

 

[NPTKD]

I feel for the guy ( 2nd - 6th) he might have been in the same place I was. Maybe his instructor didn't give him the chioce. Or maybe his instructor charged way too much for KKW and the guy could pay it. Maybe he thought that Vegas was his only way to fix his problem.. That's why I have a problem with school dans

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I feel for the guy ( 2nd - 6th) he might have been in the same place I was. Maybe his instructor didn't give him the chioce. Or maybe his instructor charged way too much for KKW and the guy could pay it. Maybe he thought that Vegas was his only way to fix his problem.. That's why I have a problem with school dans

I can respect that.

I try to be fairly objective in my opinion of big orgs, as I have no shiningly good or horribly bad personal experience to color it. I have a KKW rank only as a consequence of my GM. I am glad to have it, but I would have been just as happy with a dojo dan.

And yes, I agree that it is morally wrong to mislead a student regarding what you are presenting them come certificate time.

Daniel

 

[NPTKD]

Firstly, I appreciate you responding.


Still not clear; did he simply never tell you the difference between a dojo dan and a KKW dan or did he actually lie and tell you that you had an organizational rank?

My instructor is a Korean Grandmaster... He is also KKW.

I never knew anything more then inside the school up to 2nd Dan. I beleave the org was national. Okay, maybe I'm a fool but if you as 90% of people they would think the same thing! When I did ask things were said like it costs alot or you really don't need it anyway. When I was finally making enough where the price of certian thing were no longer a big deal ( 2 kids , wife car & house payment) I was already a fifth under him. All I could get was a skip to second. Yes I was told I could fly to the Kukkiwon and test there but now I have a school 100 plus student , i'm the only instructor.... so i wrote letters and made calls.. still only a skip. then I found the information about the Vegas test. I think there are alot of people that are or were in my shoes.

 

[miguksaram]

He is their instructor and is in the best possible position to know if the student has both the skill and the maturity to be promoted.

Personally, I think that a better question is 'who is the KKW? What contact have they had with the student? Did the student earn his or her first dan at the Kukkiwon in Korea? What do they know of TF's students? Or yours for that matter? Only what you tell them by signing that paper. I have seen way too many eighteen year olds with sloppy technique and multiple stripes on their belt for me to believe that the Kukkiwon is particularly meticulous or that most KKW instructors are particularly meticulous in their dan gradings.

I think the key question is were these 18 year olds tested at the KKW or were they tested in their own dojang and then given a KKW certificate?

If they were tested at KKW and passed, then yes perhaps stricter guidelines in testing need to be adhered to. If they tested at their own dojang then it is their instructor that needs to blamed for it, not KKW.

What I tend to see more times than not is everyone pointing the finger at KKW and saying it is their fault for watering down or producing crappy black belts. How is it their fault? The vast majority of promotion tests, until you reach 4th dan, is done by the instructor, not KKW.

 

[NPTKD]

I think the key question is were these 18 year olds tested at the KKW or were they tested in their own dojang and then given a KKW certificate?

If they were tested at KKW and passed, then yes perhaps stricter guidelines in testing need to be adhered to. If they tested at their own dojang then it is their instructor that needs to blamed for it, not KKW.

What I tend to see more times than not is everyone pointing the finger at KKW and saying it is their fault for watering down or producing crappy black belts. How is it their fault? The vast majority of promotion tests, until you reach 4th dan, is done by the instructor, not KKW.

you got it... that is my point also...

 

[Twin Fist]

i dont encourage my students to compete at all, and if they wanted to compete, I DAMN sure wouldnt take them to a WTF style event.

it would be a waste of time, since everyone of them would get DQ'd for excessive contact and punching people in the face.......

 

[NPTKD]

you know... I was pleased ( if that's the respectful word) that KKW didin't pass very one. I was kind of disappointed with the whole thing on the first day. I felt it all of these people pass then why did I work so hard to get here. I also heard that some didn't get the rank that they tested for and they hold USAT to blame. which I don't understand ether.

 

[miguksaram]

i dont encourage my students to compete at all, and if they wanted to compete, I DAMN sure wouldnt take them to a WTF style event.

it would be a waste of time, since everyone of them would get DQ'd for excessive contact and punching people in the face.......

I guess my question is this, if they are such bad *** fighters, why can't you teach them to adapt to a different set of rules for the competition? A great fighter can win under any conditions.

 

[NPTKD]

i dont encourage my students to compete at all, and if they wanted to compete, I DAMN sure wouldnt take them to a WTF style event.

it would be a waste of time, since everyone of them would get DQ'd for excessive contact and punching people in the face.......

then teach the the rules... WTF is the sport side of it!