USTC Lawsuite against Kukkiwon

[puunui]

I certainally have no axe to grind with the USTC, but suing the KKW is certainally not going to be over quickly and I am betting the plaintif will not be sending their instructors to the USTC until the issue is resolved.

And you know this because of what? Because you are actively involved in the process and therefore you have personal knowledge? Or maybe you have inside information given to you by someone actively involved in the process? Or are you merely speculating on something that you know absolutely nothing about?

This is why American borns can never hope to lead their own WTF Member National Association. Here you have an organization dedicated to improving the situation of American borns as far as Kukkiwon education and certification is concerned, and you, an American born, still feel the need to criticize that organization. That kind of thinking is what brought down the USTU and made USAT. USTC is trying to and did help you and many other Americans. I would think the least that you could or would do is show a little respect and public support for really the only organization out there who is truly attempting to improve the quality of the American Taekwondoin experience through the Kukkiwon. Or if that is asking too much, then perhaps you could or would listen and hopefully learn, the old two ears and one mouth thing. Instead, you are closing both ears and using your one mouth to bite the hand that fed you.

What is the insiuation about the latest KKW course? Also was there not another instructor course last year in Cali. not put on by USTC?

There is no insinuation of anything. There was a big discussion about the most recent Kukkiwon Instructor Course in Los Angeles. If you only look at the post directly in front of your face, then you will fail to understand a great many things. Put another way, if a student is learning Taeguek 3 and you are covering the inside middle block part, do you assume that the student already understands inside middle block from Taeguek 1 Jang, or do you have to explain all over again like it was new material?

I am all for more KKW courses in the US but why just the USTC?

Why not?

 

[andyjeffries]

First it was promoted to be a KKW certified test in Vegas and suposably people did pay the KKW fees to USAT but later only USAT certificates were issued.

I didn't know that, I thought it was Kukkiwon sanctioned and they issued the certificates (but regretted it). I didn't know that the certificates received were USAT ones. Very interesting...

 

[puunui]

First it was promoted to be a KKW certified test in Vegas and suposably people did pay the KKW fees to USAT but later only USAT certificates were issued.

That is incorrect. I know practitioners who got their Kukkiwon certificate from the US Open special test. There was a big delay though for various reasons. One reason was that the candidates were supposed to submit all of the dan fees for each dan skipped, and USAT only submitted the fee for the highest dan requested and kept the rest. Things like that. Also, some people flunked or were approved for dans less than the requested dan, and there was issues surrounding that. From the Kukkiwon's perspective, the US Open promotion test was a fiasco, something that hopefully is never repeated. USAT lost a lot of credibility because of that special test.

 

[andyjeffries]

Also, some people flunked or were approved for dans less than the requested dan, and there was issues surrounding that.

In this situation, did USAT issue certificates instead? What I mean is, if someone went for KKW 7th Dan but only passed at 6th Dan, did they get a USAT 7th Dan certificate and a KKW 6th Dan?

I wonder if that's what Master Dan is thinking of?

 

[d1jinx]

That is incorrect. I know practitioners who got their Kukkiwon certificate from the US Open special test. There was a big delay though for various reasons. One reason was that the candidates were supposed to submit all of the dan fees for each dan skipped, and USAT only submitted the fee for the highest dan requested and kept the rest. Things like that. Also, some people flunked or were approved for dans less than the requested dan, and there was issues surrounding that. From the Kukkiwon's perspective, the US Open promotion test was a fiasco, something that hopefully is never repeated. USAT lost a lot of credibility because of that special test.

To add to Puunui's statement WHICH IS CORRECT,

USAT DID NOT ISSUE ANY USAT DAN CERTIFICATES at this test. Part of this whole thing was to get USAT to stop doing that. In fact, when asked if someone who tested could get a USAT DAN cert also, they were told it cost more, in addition to what they already paid. BUT No USAT cert was given to anyone who tested freely.

 

[andyjeffries]

To add to Puunui's statement WHICH IS CORRECT,

USAT DID NOT ISSUE ANY USAT DAN CERTIFICATES at this test. Part of this whole thing was to get USAT to stop doing that. In fact, when asked if someone who tested could get a USAT DAN cert also, they were told it cost more, in addition to what they already paid. BUT No USAT cert was given to anyone who tested freely.

Thanks d1jinx. I wonder where Master Dan got his information from? Hopefully he'll post soon. It makes no difference to me, just interested.

 

[Master Dan]

Is this the USAT Special Testing you are referring to? If so, I thought the Kukkiwon were the ones examining/certifying the people then?

Also, is this a general problem you have with skip dans or a problem with a skip dan jump of so many grades? For example, you said "before he had received his 5th Dan" - would you have had a problem if he was 5th Dan jumping to 7th Dan?

Its more complex first it is legitimate time in rank. You just tested for 5th Dan under your GM not even recieving the cert from KKW and then USAT promotes ulimited skip dan come to vegas go around your master and issues a 7th Dan? in a literal sense that is a triple skip Dan? I do not believe KKW was in total agreement with USAT MAC in conducting the test hence many KKW certs were not issued that were paid for even while many did not pass the test that is different issue. First and formost there are specific good reasons for skip dan very detail in KKW rules but non just promoting any junior rank leaving masters to promote. The USTC was also reasuring they were not promoting that trend of thought but wanting to help those who possibly had been treated unfairly by masters charging but nevery issuing KKW certifiication.

 

[Master Dan]

In this situation, did USAT issue certificates instead? What I mean is, if someone went for KKW 7th Dan but only passed at 6th Dan, did they get a USAT 7th Dan certificate and a KKW 6th Dan?

I wonder if that's what Master Dan is thinking of?

From Glen
That is incorrect. I know practitioners who got their Kukkiwon certificate from the US Open special test. There was a big delay though for various reasons. One reason was that the candidates were supposed to submit all of the dan fees for each dan skipped, and USAT only submitted the fee for the highest dan requested and kept the rest. Things like that. Also, some people flunked or were approved for dans less than the requested dan, and there was issues surrounding that. From the Kukkiwon's perspective, the US Open promotion test was a fiasco, something that hopefully is never repeated. USAT lost a lot of credibility because of that special test.

Glens statements are true except for I have personally gone into peoples dojangs and inspected thier certs issued only by USAT double and triple above thier KKW Dan's and now calling them selves Grand Masters. I still stand on my issue of USAT indiscrimately promoting people to leave thier Masters and test around them promising what they could not deliver and then issuing a USAT peice of paper which is all it is paper? and I am certianly not the only senior or GM that has that opinion while they do not wish to lower thier themselves by having thier name mentioned here.

 

[terryl965]

Well it is ti,e to add fuel to the flier jere, USAT did issue rank from the US Open special testing and that was to those that did not pass there little test for there KKW rank. I will also add for those not getting there skip dan also recieved a USAT rank for that skip dan. I know of two individual that have them on there wall at there school and are proud to say they was able to jump four grades in an afternoon.

I surely hope the KKW will host alot of training camps and I hope that the USTC keeps going forward with promoting everything they do, the only thing I hope stops is the USAT from running all over the place like they do.

Last thing is this puunui seem to know alot and so does Master Dan but I know I know USAT issued rank from USAT and have seen them with my own eyes.

 

[Master Dan]

Well it is ti,e to add fuel to the flier jere, USAT did issue rank from the US Open special testing and that was to those that did not pass there little test for there KKW rank. I will also add for those not getting there skip dan also recieved a USAT rank for that skip dan. I know of two individual that have them on there wall at there school and are proud to say they was able to jump four grades in an afternoon.

I surely hope the KKW will host alot of training camps and I hope that the USTC keeps going forward with promoting everything they do, the only thing I hope stops is the USAT from running all over the place like they do.

Last thing is this puunui seem to know alot and so does Master Dan but I know I know USAT issued rank from USAT and have seen them with my own eyes.

Yes exactly however there are symantics being used knowingly or not ( issued at the test implys imediate certificates of rank issued at the test I know of none, Issued in the mail at later date yes I have seen those. I was told a majority failed going for skip Dan and many others. We now no longer have the same KKW as when the first special test in Vegas was done. I also hope that the USTC will continue going forward in a positive inclusive and educational manner. USTC charges half what USAT does for the Masters course in time the tree who bears the most fruit will be obvious to those who can see.

 

[leadleg]

And you know this because of what? Because you are actively involved in the process and therefore you have personal knowledge? Or maybe you have inside information given to you by someone actively involved in the process? Or are you merely speculating on something that you know absolutely nothing about?

It really is not hard to come to the conclusion that suing the KKW is not going to help the USTC with the current leadership,whether you say US KKW or USTC it really will not matter to the president of the KKW. If you have some inside knowledge to the contrary then step up,otherwise yours is conjecture also.

This is why American borns can never hope to lead their own WTF Member National Association. Here you have an organization dedicated to improving the situation of American borns as far as Kukkiwon education and certification is concerned, and you, an American born, still feel the need to criticize that organization. That kind of thinking is what brought down the USTU and made USAT. USTC is trying to and did help you and many other Americans. I would think the least that you could or would do is show a little respect and public support for really the only organization out there who is truly attempting to improve the quality of the American Taekwondoin experience through the Kukkiwon. Or if that is asking too much, then perhaps you could or would listen and hopefully learn, the old two ears and one mouth thing. Instead, you are closing both ears and using your one mouth to bite the hand that fed you.

I am not sure how you are getting the point that I am criticizing the leadership of the USTC or the organisation.I am merely stating my opinion about a lawsuit and the politics surrounding it.If you can give some valid arguement then do so,this isn't a courtroom,its a bbs.As for the USTC being the only org. bringing KKW courses or instructors to the states that is not true.In 2009 there was a poomse seminar in SF that was well attended. Last year an instructor seminar was put on in cali also,this year another instructor seminar, not by the USTC.The special testing was another attempt at bringing in the KKW, whether successful or not.Also there are many trips to Korea being set up by various orgs and always have been trips with certain masters for years. I do not as I said have an axe to grind with the USTC and I aplaud President Lee's attempts to salvage the Art or Do in Taekwondo. I believe you are the one who closes his eyes and ears when the conversation runs against what you would like.This is where you come off seemingly with blind allegience, although I believe it is more that you are pasionate about your Korean Born's.



There is no insinuation of anything. There was a big discussion about the most recent Kukkiwon Instructor Course in Los Angeles. If you only look at the post directly in front of your face, then you will fail to understand a great many things. Put another way, if a student is learning Taeguek 3 and you are covering the inside middle block part, do you assume that the student already understands inside middle block from Taeguek 1 Jang, or do you have to explain all over again like it was new material?

The op says the USTC tried to stop the USAT MAC seminar with an injuction,you then brought it up as a contention that something was awry with that seminar.
If you only look at the USTC side of the KKW problem then you will fail to understand a great many things.I do not mind going over material with a student if need be,I have alot of patience.



Why not?

The USTC does not need to have a monopoly on the KKW,all TKDoin should have access and any org who wishes to sponsor an event should be alowed to ask.This is the kind of thing that looks like a grab for power,locking up the certification process or educational process.
I do not have any inside information it is only my opinion,but the history of Korean politics is at play here and you can make assumptions based on history.

 

[puunui]

The USTC does not need to have a monopoly on the KKW,all TKDoin should have access and any org who wishes to sponsor an event should be alowed to ask.This is the kind of thing that looks like a grab for power,locking up the certification process or educational process.
I do not have any inside information it is only my opinion,but the history of Korean politics is at play here and you can make assumptions based on history.

So this is a Korean, and therefore racist thing for you then, even though USTC President Sang Lee is an American citizen, as are all of the other officers of USTC.

 

[puunui]

I am certianly not the only senior or GM that has that opinion while they do not wish to lower thier themselves by having thier name mentioned here.

So you are a Grandmaster and a senior then?

 

[leadleg]

So this is a Korean, and therefore racist thing for you then, even though USTC President Sang Lee is an American citizen, as are all of the other officers of USTC.

Ha, thats funny trying to play that on me,racist,I am far from being racist. I am talking Korean politics because that is what has happened to the USTC. The current KKW president is taking the global ideas of the previous administration,who I believe got the ideas from President Lee and the USTC. Was it not the USTC and president Lee who came up with the US KKW? Was it not the USTC that was a big player in trying to stop the govt.takeover of the KKW? Isn't that the reason for this whole lawsuit mess.It reminds me of when the govt there decided it did not want President Kim to remain in power and framed him,or the way the elections for the WTF presidency was carried out,last time and the election before that when they went after Dr.Cha Sok Park.....it goes on and on,thats the history I'm talking about.
You went after one of the posters here because he did not capitalise KKW and yet you have no problem with them being sued.
For the most part I have been behind most of the things you talk about,but when once in a while I disagree you accuse me of being disrespectful or now racist, I have an opinion on what may come of this lawsuit,I spoke about it,do not make it out to be something its not.

 

[Archtkd]

Who has actually read the entire plaintiff's complaint relating to this thread -- the breach of contract lawsuit that the US Kukkiwon has filed against its estranged mothership in Korea?

 

[andyjeffries]

Who has actually read the entire plaintiff's complaint relating to this thread -- the breach of contract lawsuit that the US Kukkiwon has filed against its estranged mothership in Korea?

Is it available online anywhere? I've had a bit of a Google search, but can't find anything.

 

[andyjeffries]

Also, is this a general problem you have with skip dans or a problem with a skip dan jump of so many grades?

Its more complex first it is legitimate time in rank. You just tested for 5th Dan under your GM not even recieving the cert from KKW and then USAT promotes ulimited skip dan come to vegas go around your master and issues a 7th Dan? in a literal sense that is a triple skip Dan?

OK, so it was more the fact that often the time requirement was skipped, skipping so many dans and going around your master/grandmaster that you had a problem with than dan skipping per se.

As the recent recipient of a skip dan I am aware some people don't like the idea of skipping dan grades and I just like the opportunity to discuss why so that I can understand their feelings better.

 

[miguksaram]

The USTC does not need to have a monopoly on the KKW,all TKDoin should have access and any org who wishes to sponsor an event should be alowed to ask.This is the kind of thing that looks like a grab for power,locking up the certification process or educational process.
I do not have any inside information it is only my opinion,but the history of Korean politics is at play here and you can make assumptions based on history.

You are right, the USTC does not need to have a monopoly on KKW, nor does it seek it. It has always been willing to work with USAT and other TKD orgs. USTC extended their hand in friendship from the beginning and USAT slapped it down with empty promises of support for the World Hanmadang, trying to ban USTC Exec Director Mst. Harris from being a ref at a USAT event and other such dealings. However, Pres. Lee and other officers STILL continue to tell its members that it should still support the USAT if they wish to pursue the Olympics. They have always said they were not interested in being an NGB for the Olympics. They have their own separate goals.

With that being said, I would like to once again state that this situation has nothing to do with the USTC organization. This is USKKW vs. KKW. USKKW's hope was to provide a centralize processing center that would help US instructors with KKW manners such as Dan certification, training, etc. To my knowledge they have at no time said they will be the end all be all and that ALL certificates must be processed through them.

 

[miguksaram]

Ha, thats funny trying to play that on me,racist,I am far from being racist. I am talking Korean politics because that is what has happened to the USTC. The current KKW president is taking the global ideas of the previous administration,who I believe got the ideas from President Lee and the USTC.

How do you see Korean politics in all of this and how do you figure that is what is happening to the USTC?

Was it not the USTC and president Lee who came up with the US KKW?

No they did not come up with USKKW, but they were the ones who made a bid for the position when it was made available. However, they told us that one had nothing to do with the other.

Was it not the USTC that was a big player in trying to stop the govt.takeover of the KKW?

The USTC has been very vocal to the Korean government. They had a special opportunity back in 2009 when they sponsored delegations from all over the world. At one of the dinners a representative from the Korean Senate visited as a guest speaker. It was then that Pres. Lee and several other TKD leaders from 13 different countries had the opportunity to discuss what they felt were the negative ramifications of having the Koran government control KKW. So while it would be nice to say USTC was the big dog on the block it was a world wide unified effort to stop this process.

Isn't that the reason for this whole lawsuit mess.

The reason for the mess is that there was a contract in place between the two parties (USKKW & KKW). One of the parties (KKW) no longer felt the need to honor their part of the contract. Now, after several attempts, it has come down to having to put this in the hands of the court system.

 

[d1jinx]

No they did not come up with USKKW, but they were the ones who made a bid for the position when it was made available. However, they told us that one had nothing to do with the other.


The reason for the mess is that there was a contract in place between the two parties (USKKW & KKW). One of the parties (KKW) no longer felt the need to honor their part of the contract. Now, after several attempts, it has come down to having to put this in the hands of the court system.

LEADLEG,

This is Correct. I'm not sure how involved you have been, but remember about 2 years ago, the Kukkiwon anounced it would be setting up an Overseas Kukkiwon Branch. Several U.S. Orgs applied (none of which were USAT) actually 3, I think. USTC won the "CONTRACT" to run the KKW overseas branch in the U.S. hence, USKKW.

I believe there was a time limit to how long they would hold that contract, but regardless, USTC won the contract. KKW has not upheld that contract. It is no different then you applying for a YMCA contract and winning, then right after you win a New director takes over and says the contract in Non existant and refuses to recognise it.

It was never USTC's Idea, It was the KKW in KOREA's idea.