USTC Lawsuite against Kukkiwon

[terryl965]

When will people in power understand it is not about them but instead about the training and intrigrity of TKD that really matters in the end.

 

[miguksaram]

When will people in power understand it is not about them but instead about the training and intrigrity of TKD that really matters in the end.

That is the sentiment of the USTC. Bringing back that integrity and art of Taekwondo.

 

[dowan50]

OK, so it was more the fact that often the time requirement was skipped, skipping so many dans and going around your master/grandmaster that you had a problem with than dan skipping per se.

As the recent recipient of a skip dan I am aware some people don't like the idea of skipping dan grades and I just like the opportunity to discuss why so that I can understand their feelings better.

I support skip Dan being awarded when the applicant meets all requirements published by the KKW which include time in rank and still meeting all testing requirements while at the same time considerations for financial hardship, testing master/GM has died and other other special circumstances. The issues stated above I have a problem with and not just me. I have many friends who complained about those who had considerable cash and influence were able to jump ahead by having the time and money to go to Korea directly and personally pay off who they needed to skip ahead? I personally have not seen this and those who were rumored of doing this that I knew seemed very qualified to hold their rank.

 

[terryl965]

OK, so it was more the fact that often the time requirement was skipped, skipping so many dans and going around your master/grandmaster that you had a problem with than dan skipping per se.

As the recent recipient of a skip dan I am aware some people don't like the idea of skipping dan grades and I just like the opportunity to discuss why so that I can understand their feelings better.

I support skip Dan being awarded when the applicant meets all requirements published by the KKW which include time in rank and still meeting all testing requirements while at the same time considerations for financial hardship, testing master/GM has died and other other special circumstances. The issues stated above I have a problem with and not just me. I have many friends who complained about those who had considerable cash and influence were able to jump ahead by having the time and money to go to Korea directly and personally pay off who they needed to skip ahead? I personally have not seen this and those who were rumored of doing this that I knew seemed very qualified to hold their rank.

Sure there are some valid reason for a skip Dan, but i have seen people not train for years and come back and withen a few years are masters when they was a meer 1st when they left. To me this is abuse of the system if you stop training that time should not be counted, but many times it is. To me a skip dan is needed when someone has lost a GM or just stop being part of a org and always been training so time in would count.

 

[IcemanSK]

LEADLEG,

This is Correct. I'm not sure how involved you have been, but remember about 2 years ago, the Kukkiwon anounced it would be setting up an Overseas Kukkiwon Branch. Several U.S. Orgs applied (none of which were USAT) actually 3, I think. USTC won the "CONTRACT" to run the KKW overseas branch in the U.S. hence, USKKW.

I believe there was a time limit to how long they would hold that contract, but regardless, USTC won the contract. KKW has not upheld that contract. It is no different then you applying for a YMCA contract and winning, then right after you win a New director takes over and says the contract in Non existant and refuses to recognise it.

It was never USTC's Idea, It was the KKW in KOREA's idea.

If I'm not mistaken, the USNTF run by GM Kwon, Duk Gun out of Illinois was also one of those orgs who bid on that contract.

 

[miguksaram]

If I'm not mistaken, the USNTF run by GM Kwon, Duk Gun out of Illinois was also one of those orgs who bid on that contract.

That is correct.

 

[puunui]

Ha, thats funny trying to play that on me,racist,I am far from being racist.

I am just going by what you wrote, that you have no information on it but the "history of Korean politics" is in play here and we can make assumptions based on that. You could have said "Taekwondo politics" or simply "politics" but instead chose to use the term "korean", which is a racial distinction. Having no information but making assumptions based on race -- what is that in your book?

I do not have any inside information it is only my opinion,but the history of Korean politics is at play here and you can make assumptions based on history.

 

[puunui]

You went after one of the posters here because he did not capitalise KKW and yet you have no problem with them being sued.

Capitalize KKW? I have no idea what you are talking about. As for the Kukkiwon being sued, let's just say that there were many people who urged that the lawsuit be filed. You have no idea what is going on. You really do not and all of these accusations and recriminatory comments doesn't change that fact.

When I was your level, or at your stage of the journey, and something like this happened, I would think deeply about everything that I knew about the situation, and then draw my own conclusions on what was developing and make predictions in my mind about the resolution of the dispute. I would keep these to myself and wait until the situation played out. Then I would compare my perspective and prediction to what actually happened. If I was wrong, I would look deeply to figure out what was the determining factor which caused my perception and prediction to be incorrect. Almost 100% of the time, it was because I failed to take into account or give proper weight to some fact or set of facts, or I did not have enough information to make an accurate prediction. Generally I would give too much weight or not enough weight because of my own preconceived ideas. I learned to look at the situation as objectively as possible, so that I can look at these things clearly. As time went on, I got better at it, mainly because my information became better.

For those who are interested in following my method, I leave clues and give enough information to point them in the right direction, without giving them the answer. If I give them the answer, then it robs them of the opportunity to work on their perception. When I post on these type of forums, it is really those people that I am writing to, the ones who are soaking it in and trying to sharpen their own perceptions, in preparation of perhaps making a difference in the future, hopefully the near future.

I am not writing to or for those who want to argue with me, because generally their minds are already made up and therefore there is probably not much that they can learn from me, mainly because they do not wish to learn.

 

[dowan50]

Sure there are some valid reason for a skip Dan, but i have seen people not train for years and come back and withen a few years are masters when they was a meer 1st when they left. To me this is abuse of the system if you stop training that time should not be counted, but many times it is. To me a skip dan is needed when someone has lost a GM or just stop being part of a org and always been training so time in would count.

I agree with you however based on the by laws of KKW it is impossible to go 1st Dan to Master level because you need to meet the time in rank for a single jump then time in that rank for the next jump. So beyond Urban Legend have you any proof or documentation? I know many of us talk about people going over having a lot of money and connections with the good ol boy network I cannot attest that I can prove it? You may have not seen the person for quite some time and they may have been promoted with out training or testing on regular basis to keep the time in rank going. Why? money in fees? also I was told you cannot get to Grand Master level with out promoting students to master level?? The GM may have felt pressure keep promotions going for his own motives. This could be urban legend but I was told that by a well respected national GM?

I like your comment about its the training and benefit to people should be the focus instead of all the fighting over who did what.

Its unfortunate certain people that like to go off topic call people racists or ignorant suggesting they should not voice their opinion or they try to twist Semantics over a word in a post just spoiling for a fight or at least the opportunity do a counter rant with ME GOOD YOU BAD. They should grow up or just stay in their Do Jang where little children will worship every Pontificating Word that comes out of their mouth.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Sure there are some valid reason for a skip Dan, but i have seen people not train for years and come back and withen a few years are masters when they was a meer 1st when they left. To me this is abuse of the system if you stop training that time should not be counted, but many times it is. To me a skip dan is needed when someone has lost a GM or just stop being part of a org and always been training so time in would count.

I agree with you however based on the by laws of KKW it is impossible to go 1st Dan to Master level because you need to meet the time in rank for a single jump then time in that rank for the next jump. So beyond Urban Legend have you any proof or documentation? I know many of us talk about people going over having a lot of money and connections with the good ol boy network I cannot attest that I can prove it? You may have not seen the person for quite some time and they may have been promoted with out training or testing on regular basis to keep the time in rank going. Why? money in fees? also I was told you cannot get to Grand Master level with out promoting students to master level?? The GM may have felt pressure keep promotions going for his own motives. This could be urban legend but I was told that by a well respected national GM?

I like your comment about its the training and benefit to people should be the focus instead of all the fighting over who did what.

Its unfortunate certain people that like to go off topic call people racists or ignorant suggesting they should not voice their opinion or they try to twist Semantics over a word in a post just spoiling for a fight or at least the opportunity do a counter rant with ME GOOD YOU BAD. They should grow up or just stay in their Do Jang where little children will worship every Pontificating Word that comes out of their mouth.

I like your last bit. the problem is that the reason forums work is because every body throws their 2 bobs worth in and we can all learn. Unfortunately you get people come along who think their word is gospel and that they know everything and it throws out the balance of a forum. I agree with you that they should stay in their dojang where nobody dares question a word they say.

 

[puunui]

Its unfortunate certain people that like to go off topic

Check the title of this topic, it is about the USTC lawsuit, not skip dans.

 

[puunui]

call people racists or ignorant suggesting they should not voice their opinion or they try to twist Semantics over a word in a post just spoiling for a fight or at least the opportunity do a counter rant with ME GOOD YOU BAD. They should grow up or just stay in their Do Jang where little children will worship every Pontificating Word that comes out of their mouth.

But I guess it's ok for you do it right?

 

[leadleg]

Capitalize KKW? I have no idea what you are talking about. As for the Kukkiwon being sued, let's just say that there were many people who urged that the lawsuit be filed. You have no idea what is going on. You really do not and all of these accusations and recriminatory comments doesn't change that fact.

When I was your level, or at your stage of the journey, and something like this happened, I would think deeply about everything that I knew about the situation, and then draw my own conclusions on what was developing and make predictions in my mind about the resolution of the dispute. I would keep these to myself and wait until the situation played out. Then I would compare my perspective and prediction to what actually happened. If I was wrong, I would look deeply to figure out what was the determining factor which caused my perception and prediction to be incorrect. Almost 100% of the time, it was because I failed to take into account or give proper weight to some fact or set of facts, or I did not have enough information to make an accurate prediction. Generally I would give too much weight or not enough weight because of my own preconceived ideas. I learned to look at the situation as objectively as possible, so that I can look at these things clearly. As time went on, I got better at it, mainly because my information became better.

For those who are interested in following my method, I leave clues and give enough information to point them in the right direction, without giving them the answer. If I give them the answer, then it robs them of the opportunity to work on their perception. When I post on these type of forums, it is really those people that I am writing to, the ones who are soaking it in and trying to sharpen their own perceptions, in preparation of perhaps making a difference in the future, hopefully the near future.

I am not writing to or for those who want to argue with me, because generally their minds are already made up and therefore there is probably not much that they can learn from me, mainly because they do not wish to learn.

Egotistical diatribe

 

[leadleg]

I am just going by what you wrote, that you have no information on it but the "history of Korean politics" is in play here and we can make assumptions based on that. You could have said "Taekwondo politics" or simply "politics" but instead chose to use the term "korean", which is a racial distinction. Having no information but making assumptions based on race -- what is that in your book?

The current preident of the KKW has snubbed the USTC because they tried to keep him out of the KKW by trying to counter the Govt. takeover of the KKW.He is using his office to establish his own style of global KKW. That in my opinion is Korean Politics, Korean being the distinction not racial.But you are correct I could have said just politics except it would have no distinction.

 

[leadleg]

duplicate

 

[leadleg]

I like your last bit. the problem is that the reason forums work is because every body throws their 2 bobs worth in and we can all learn. Unfortunately you get people come along who think their word is gospel and that they know everything and it throws out the balance of a forum. I agree with you that they should stay in their dojang where nobody dares question a word they say.

You have to have a dojang to go to.

 

[miguksaram]

The current preident of the KKW has snubbed the USTC because they tried to keep him out of the KKW by trying to counter the Govt. takeover of the KKW.He is using his office to establish his own style of global KKW. That in my opinion is Korean Politics, Korean being the distinction not racial.But you are correct I could have said just politics except it would have no distinction.

Question on this. Was Kang the definite choice of the Korean government and was placed in there by them or was their an election held after the take over in which Kang won? The reason why I ask is that you mention that Kang was getting back at the USKKW because they were vocal about government takeover. USKKW were not the only ones. There were 81 people from 13 different countries in our last trip were just as vocal about it.

 

[leadleg]

Question on this. Was Kang the definite choice of the Korean government and was placed in there by them or was their an election held after the take over in which Kang won? The reason why I ask is that you mention that Kang was getting back at the USKKW because they were vocal about government takeover. USKKW were not the only ones. There were 81 people from 13 different countries in our last trip were just as vocal about it.

The USTC was more than vocal,they sent signed petitions,asked many dojang owners to get their students to sign petitions,that is no secret and President Lee was very upfront about the takeover.As to the 13 different countries that was thirteen people from different countries not thirteen different orgs.
Your trip was I am sure considered by the current administration to be USTC, or at least led by thaeir president.
Is it the present KKW you are upset with or President Kang? I did think the USKKW was established after your trip, so the petition was delivered to Korea from who?
Just to be clear I am still only voicing one lone opinion about a lawsuit, not really interested in arguing with two guys from the USTU.
You fought a battle and lost and now act surprised that the victors are seeking reprisal,you say the war is still on and you are predicting a win,thats fine. In the meantime I say you are not going to get much cooperation from the KKW while this suit is going on.Whether it be USKKW or USTC, being that the head of those orgs is the same man.

 

[dowan50]

Egotistical diatribe

Exactly and those who know him agree in fact every time he quotes his gospel he violates it on every point time after time. Calling people ignorant, racists or they are some how of lower value and should remain quiet and then when all else fails just claim you are some how in another superior reality and have decided to wash your hands of the unworthy.

When all else fails accuse the other person what you yourself are guilty of to put them off balance a classic negotiating style to obtain a goal or change the focus away from the issue at hand.

 

[dowan50]

The current preident of the KKW has snubbed the USTC because they tried to keep him out of the KKW by trying to counter the Govt. takeover of the KKW.He is using his office to establish his own style of global KKW. That in my opinion is Korean Politics, Korean being the distinction not racial.But you are correct I could have said just politics except it would have no distinction.

If you go back you will find that Mr. P has on many occasions used Korean or Korean born in relation to many political situations in his posts about KKW and other TKD organizations. Going further we get general impression from his posts that Korean born is superior to non Korean born or non Korean implying purism related to race. Yet none of us call him a racist? If we go off topic it is only because he has pulled us in that direction and generally to defend the right of free speech and open discussion a forum is about opinion and what a person thinks does matter if only to get a lay of the land to see what the general perspective is.

It would seem that the term political in its purest form has no cultural or other distinction which if trying to communicate would be like saying SOUP ONLY with out describing what kind of soup what is in it?
po·lit·i·cal

   /pəˈlɪt

ɪ

kəl/ Show Spelled[puh-lit-i-kuh

l]
–adjective 1. of, pertaining to, or concerned with politics: political writers.

2. of, pertaining to, or connected with a political party: a political campaign.

3. exercising or seeking power in the governmental or public affairs of a state, municipality, etc.: a political machine; a political boss.

4. of, pertaining to, or involving the state or its government: a political offense.

5. having a definite policy or system of government: a political community.

6. of or pertaining to citizens: political rights.






I don't think it is at all racist to describe a thing as Korean politics anymore than to say American politics? The USTC KKW law suite on the one hand is a piece of paper related only to breech of contract between two organizations. However the world is flesh and blood involving two principles who are both Korean and regardless of citizenship both have strong personal and cultural relationships to Korea and are at odds based on those race and cultural environmental factors which make them the sum total of who they are and what they think and how they intend to take action.

Why then should we be forced to check off the box on a job application stating our race and Gender? I will now refuse and claim only to be Human however I am sure that point will be argued as well.

I think you and Terry both lend some sanity and reason to the forums and I hope that you and others will not be intimidated not to give your honest opinions in the future.