Kotegaeshi with a difference

[Gerry Seymour]

I follow nothing blindly, on the contrary I'm studying pretty hard and my conclusions are based on my experience... There is no limitation in any martial art... The only limiting factor is each individual person's skill... But how can you define skill? Well, you've got Aikido skills, when you are good in Aikido. What's so difficult about it?
Having understood that it saves me the excuses of blaming the art and makes me work harder... Maybe more people should do that...

There are limitations in EVERY martial art.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Is Aiki as simple as "apply force in one direction, suddenly reverse the direction"? All wrestling art use that principle.

No, though it sometimes expresses that way. There's no single part of aiki that you can't find in other arts. You can probably find all parts of aiki in more than one art. The only difference for aiki-oriented arts is that they focus more on it.

For the principle you mention, the difference in a truly aiki approach would be there would never be resistance by the proponent. As soon as they feel any opposing force, they move with it. With rare exception, aiki approach doesn't initiate the movement, where wrestling (and Judo, etc.) will.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I mentioned once sprawls were Aiki.

Can be, certainly.

 

[Ryback]

You should spend time on what works. If you want what you do to work.

This means abandoning preconceived ideas like your method will work if you just try hard enough.

As I said already I have no preconceived ideas, my ideas come from my experience and my experience comes from studying hard day-in, day-out, no days off, no bloody Sundays.
So, what's your experience with Aikido then?

 

[O'Malley]

He came from what I have seen of him and his techs etc the Iwama style ...might be wrong though

Having practiced both Iwama and Aikikai, I can say that the Rokas guy from AikidoSiauliai/AikidoJourney is definitely not Iwama (nor any of the older styles of aikido). He looks like a shodan (1st degree BB) from a modern school of aikido.

Is Aiki as simple as "apply force in one direction, suddenly reverse the direction"? All wrestling art use that principle.

This is not a definition of aiki. This is a definition of the "ju no ri" of judo (pull when pushed, push when pulled), at least in my understanding of ju no ri. Aikido can also make use of this concept (particularly in dynamic situations) but it is not aiki. I would like to add that given the number of high-level judoka (and other martial artists) that were thrashed by Osensei and described his strength as "a mysterious force that is impossible to resist against", I doubt that they would have had this impression from an application of the most basic judo principle (the same discourse can be applied to Yukiyoshi Sagawa and Sokaku Takeda).

While in a real situation it will be applied upon contact (creating "instant kuzushi"), aiki at its most basic levels is trained in static situations and does not rely on timing. Here is the kokyu ho exercise, which has been called "the secret to aiki" by aiki's best exponents and can be trained from both static and dynamic POVs:

Based on quotes from Morihei Ueshiba, Yukiyoshi Sagawa and some contemporary sources (that demonstrate, for example, that Osensei was using the same terminology and imagery as the ones used in the Tai Chi Classics), my current understanding of the concept of "aiki" would be as follows (I will expose here the different aspects/levels that I can think of, even though they ultimately overlap):

- the ability to manifest a tension between opposing forces within the body (extension-contraction, gravity-ground reaction force, etc.)
- the ability to absorb external force into the center, make it rebound into the ground and send it back through physical contact, nullifying the force of an opponent thanks to "non-resistance"
- the ability to redirect the nullified force by tackling it at a perpendicular angle (we use circular or spiral movements so that the force applied to the point of contact is in a direction that is tangent to the circle, thus perpendicular to the force of the opponent)
- the ability to focus whole-body power into one movement (this, in conjunction with the use of momentum, forms what is called "kokyu-ryoku")

I'm purposefully leaving out the spiritual/tactical aspects (being one with the universe, "filling" the voids that the opponent makes within his own guard when he moves, etc.) because, as you see, it is a really convoluted, complex, and holistic principle and the best one can hope for is to make artificial distinctions such as the ones above.

Some styles/teachers focus more on some aspects (Ki Society focuses a lot on push tests and what can be linked to the two first aspects, while the kokyu bit is emphasised in Iwama and Yoshinkan, etc.).

Based on videos, Osensei seemed to focus on a more dynamic application of aiki compared to the Daito ryu guys (what Iwama guys call "ki no nagare") and that might be the thing that led to the confusion that aiki is "good timing" or that aiki is "ju no ri" (or "blending"...). But he was on a different level also in terms of perception and reflexes. Leaving out the stories where he reportedly dodged bullets, he was able to catch the punch of a pro-boxer (Piston Horiguchi) and pull him to the ground with the first technique in this video:

There's so much more to aiki that frankly I can't wrap my mind around it.

For a more contemporary example of good technique, relaxation, non-resistance, connection and of how the power can be transmitted from the hips to the hands via a relaxed structure, I really like Ryuji Sawa's aikido (he's from the Iwama school where, although they don't do full-on sparring, uke is told to resist fully to the technique):

 

[now disabled]

Having practiced both Iwama and Aikikai, I can say that the Rokas guy from AikidoSiauliai/AikidoJourney is definitely not Iwama (nor any of the older styles of aikido). He looks like a shodan (1st degree BB) from a modern school of aikido.

Ok but I can see Iwama in him for sure and I trained there lol, mind you as he has kinda gone on a diff line and has been around quite a few different teachers then maybe he is an amalgam ... as for his rank I do not know but he certainly does not teach all the 6 techs mind you there are many schools that don't teach all 6

 

[Ryback]

Having practiced both Iwama and Aikikai, I can say that the Rokas guy from AikidoSiauliai/AikidoJourney is definitely not Iwama (nor any of the older styles of aikido). He looks like a shodan (1st degree BB) from a modern school of aikido.



This is not a definition of aiki. This is a definition of the "ju no ri" of judo (pull when pushed, push when pulled), at least in my understanding of ju no ri. Aikido can also make use of this concept (particularly in dynamic situations) but it is not aiki. I would like to add that given the number of high-level judoka (and other martial artists) that were thrashed by Osensei and described his strength as "a mysterious force that is impossible to resist against", I doubt that they would have had this impression from an application of the most basic judo principle (the same discourse can be applied to Yukiyoshi Sagawa and Sokaku Takeda).

While in a real situation it will be applied upon contact (creating "instant kuzushi"), aiki at its most basic levels is trained in static situations and does not rely on timing. Here is the kokyu ho exercise, which has been called "the secret to aiki" by aiki's best exponents and can be trained from both static and dynamic POVs:

Based on quotes from Morihei Ueshiba, Yukiyoshi Sagawa and some contemporary sources (that demonstrate, for example, that Osensei was using the same terminology and imagery as the ones used in the Tai Chi Classics), my current understanding of the concept of "aiki" would be as follows (I will expose here the different aspects/levels that I can think of, even though they ultimately overlap):

- the ability to manifest a tension between opposing forces within the body (extension-contraction, gravity-ground reaction force, etc.)
- the ability to absorb external force into the center, make it rebound into the ground and send it back through physical contact, nullifying the force of an opponent thanks to "non-resistance"
- the ability to redirect the nullified force by tackling it at a perpendicular angle (we use circular or spiral movements so that the force applied to the point of contact is in a direction that is tangent to the circle, thus perpendicular to the force of the opponent)
- the ability to focus whole-body power into one movement (this, in conjunction with the use of momentum, forms what is called "kokyu-ryoku")

I'm purposefully leaving out the spiritual/tactical aspects (being one with the universe, "filling" the voids that the opponent makes within his own guard when he moves, etc.) because, as you see, it is a really convoluted, complex, and holistic principle and the best one can hope for is to make artificial distinctions such as the ones above.

Some styles/teachers focus more on some aspects (Ki Society focuses a lot on push tests and what can be linked to the two first aspects, while the kokyu bit is emphasised in Iwama and Yoshinkan, etc.).

Based on videos, Osensei seemed to focus on a more dynamic application of aiki compared to the Daito ryu guys (what Iwama guys call "ki no nagare") and that might be the thing that led to the confusion that aiki is "good timing" or that aiki is "ju no ri" (or "blending"...). But he was on a different level also in terms of perception and reflexes. Leaving out the stories where he reportedly dodged bullets, he was able to catch the punch of a pro-boxer (Piston Horiguchi) and pull him to the ground with the first technique in this video:

There's so much more to aiki that frankly I can't wrap my mind around it.

For a more contemporary example of good technique, relaxation, non-resistance, connection and of how the power can be transmitted from the hips to the hands via a relaxed structure, I really like Ryuji Sawa's aikido (he's from the Iwama school where, although they don't do full-on sparring, uke is told to resist fully to the technique):

Very nice post about Aiki as a principle... Although it can be expressed through timing it is a whole different thing...
There are numerous ways of practice and tests that we do in our dojo to explore how good is each one of us in manifesting Kokyu, Ki power that are essential to the application of Aiki and most of them are static, therefore it has nothing to do with timing...
Aiki principle is absolutely necessary in order to make Aikido work and that's why most people can't understand that it is actually effective...

 

[O'Malley]

While I do agree that aikido has a fantastic potential, criticism regarding its effectiveness is justified in a sense: so far no modern exponent of the art has been able to show it working against a resisting opponent. While it's great in theory, if you cannot show it working, it's all talk...

 

[Martial D]

Aiki principle is absolutely necessary in order to make Aikido work and that's why most people can't understand that it is actually effective...

What does aikido that is 'actually effective' look like? I assume you mean effective for fighting? I'm really not trying to be antagonistic here, but I've never seen anything that ''looks like' any of the many many cooperative demos I've seen in any sort of live sparring, fighting, or competition. Is it possible that it look so different in practice I just can't recognise it?

Surely that's more likely than an effective martial system practiced by millions NEVER being caught in action in a world where every single person carries a high res video camera in their pocket?

 

[now disabled]

What does aikido that is 'actually effective' look like? I assume you mean effective for fighting? I'm really not trying to be antagonistic here, but I've never seen anything that ''looks like' any of the many many cooperative demos I've seen in any sort of live sparring, fighting, or competition. Is it possible that it look so different in practice I just can't recognise it?

Surely that's more likely than an effective martial system practiced by millions NEVER being caught in action in a world where every single person carries a high res video camera in their pocket?

Firstly before I say anything and you start yelling I am getting at you....................I am not

You make me really laugh as it the same thing you say time after time after time

Anyone the posts anything positive about Aikido or how they view it you jump on them

as you stae you have an Aikidoka as a friend why don't you get on the mat with a vid camera and do vids then post them and we can all see how effective you are against things

 

[Martial D]

Firstly before I say anything and you start yelling I am getting at you....................I am not

You make me really laugh as it the same thing you say time after time after time

Anyone the posts anything positive about Aikido or how they view it you jump on them

as you stae you have an Aikidoka as a friend why don't you get on the mat with a vid camera and do vids then post them and we can all see how effective you are against things

Ok. That doesn't at all answer my question, but thanks for responding I guess.

 

[now disabled]

Ok. That doesn't at all answer my question, but thanks for responding I guess.

You ask the same time after time after time

If you are so sure as you seem to be then go out and find the eveidence yourself you keep saying the same things so if you are so sure of that then go do an expose and let the whole world see instead of saying the same again and again and again

You obviously have massive insight into Aikido that you claim it doesn't work so why not go prove it ...it that simple

 

[Martial D]

You ask the same time after time after time

If you are so sure as you seem to be then go out and find the eveidence yourself you keep saying the same things so if you are so sure of that then go do an expose and let the whole world see instead of saying the same again and again and again

You obviously have massive insight into Aikido that you claim it doesn't work so why not go prove it ...it that simple

Can you try to focus here? I just don't care what you think of me. Every single thing you've said here is about me, not the topic. Is it your attention span that is disabled?

All I've done is ask reasonable questions. Answer them or go away.

 

[now disabled]

Can you try to focus here? I just don't care what you think of me. Every single thing you've said here is about me, not the topic. Is it your attention span that is disabled?

All I've done is ask reasonable questions. Answer them or go away.

Yes the last post was focused on you as you jump on every Aikidoka ...even have the audacity to slang of recognised masters and keep demanding video evidence . In the past you haul out that I am getting at you and even tried to be smart in a post and quoted a sword saint (incidentally do you know which book of the go rin no sho that comes from?) now your saying I my attention span is disabled

For your information I am disabled cause I got blown up and shot ok ...so yes sir I have faced combat and did for 15 years so don't you dare roll out the crap on disablement

As I said you are so sure that Aikido doesn't work ...why don't you go out and prove same instead of jumping on everyone and anyone that says anything positive about Aikido

If you had actually read I have never said that classical Aikido was effective I said the principles are and if you cannot get those principles then that is down to you no one else

 

[now disabled]

Can you try to focus here? I just don't care what you think of me. Every single thing you've said here is about me, not the topic. Is it your attention span that is disabled?

All I've done is ask reasonable questions. Answer them or go away.

What no come back on the disabled bit ???

Come on start on that ...and say I am getting at you

No true martial Artist would ever say that to a person as part of any Martial ethos is respect regardless

report me if you must and get me banned for all these personal insults I have directed at you

 

[now disabled]

And for others info I was in a landy that hit a IED I got out 3 of my mates didn't and the other guy that was with us took his own life because he couldn't take the stress of what had happened.

My whole body got put through the ringer so that is why I am disabled

 

[Martial D]

Yes the last post was focused on you as you jump on every Aikidoka ...even have the audacity to slang of recognised masters and keep demanding video evidence . In the past you haul out that I am getting at you and even tried to be smart in a post and quoted a sword saint (incidentally do you know which book of the go rin no sho that comes from?) now your saying I my attention span is disabled

For your information I am disabled cause I got blown up and shot ok ...so yes sir I have faced combat and did for 15 years so don't you dare roll out the crap on disablement

As I said you are so sure that Aikido doesn't work ...why don't you go out and prove same instead of jumping on everyone and anyone that says anything positive about Aikido

If you had actually read I have never said that classical Aikido was effective I said the principles are and if you cannot get those principles then that is down to you no one else

You are on ignore until such a time as you show you are capable of reasonable conversation.

 

[drop bear]

As I said already I have no preconceived ideas, my ideas come from my experience and my experience comes from studying hard day-in, day-out, no days off, no bloody Sundays.
So, what's your experience with Aikido then?

I have spoken to Paul Cale about it. His issues kind of reflect MMA vs Aikido guys issues which seem to be consistent with any Aikido guy who can actually demonstratively make any martial art work.

Shibucho Paul Cale – Kudo Australia

I would have to see something work before I invest time and money in it.

Can you make aikido work? Can anybody do it on video and then explain it.

I mean there is no shortage of aikido video. These guys are not hiding out. It is just the lack of demonstrated with resistance that makes me not want to put the day in day out no Sundays.

And potentially get no result.

 

[Martial D]

Does anyone else have the answer to these questions of mine?

IF this is a combat effective system, what does it look like in practice?

If it looks the same as the cooperative demos, where is the footage of it working in either sparring, fighting, or competition?

Sometimes an absence of evidence is the same as evidence of absence.

 

[Ryback]

What does aikido that is 'actually effective' look like? I assume you mean effective for fighting? I'm really not trying to be antagonistic here, but I've never seen anything that ''looks like' any of the many many cooperative demos I've seen in any sort of live sparring, fighting, or competition. Is it possible that it look so different in practice I just can't recognise it?

Surely that's more likely than an effective martial system practiced by millions NEVER being caught in action in a world where every single person carries a high res video camera in their pocket?

The effectiveness of a martial art has nothing to do with sports fighting or sparring, that's a game with rules and referees...
Most Aikidoka I know (myself included) would try to stay out of harms way by avoiding any conflict and when it ever happens, believe me, I won't stop to make sure that my cellphone's camera is recording in order to satisfy people on YouTube or any forum...
As a matter of fact, I wouldn't like any witnesses around...