Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo

[GAB]

Hi Kell,
The Neko Buto was a cat dance type kata, (name implys) on the balls of the feet? Naihanchi was a pretty solid footing Kata (on the heels).

So do you think they were a combination of the two with a lifting of the heel like the EPAK people are talking about? If so was this the start of the softer forms rather then the harder forms?

I guess to get more information about the Okinawan line of Katas we will have to go visit some of their boards.

I see they are talking about the hard and soft techs, with the idea that they are internal and external. LOL, Geez.

How about you Kell, Kosho Shorie Ryu Kempo and Kosho Ryu Kempo does that imply hard and soft? Spirtual being softer then the fighting side or just the opposite?

In the FMA the more spiritual you were, the stronger they were in battle, where does all this misinformation come from.

Were the Crusades our softer side of war or were they harder? Think like you would if you were in a War. Is not that where they come from?

Now if we were on Martial Talk we would have to figure a new name for the thread ( martial) so we could talk about it oustide of the box.

Wait! I had a dream. I remember now. We had the big 3, why do we need more? Okinawa is Motobu, Japan is Funakoshi, Hawaii is Mitose. First generation, Chow, Emperado, Trias. Second generation, Parker, Tracy, Juchnik, third generation. As you can see they are moving to the west coast.

If Juchnik goes back to Mitose and Mitose was his teacher does that make him senior or junior to the others? Never have figured it out. In family lineage is he the son or a distant cousin/nephew like the rest?

How come Ray Arquilla is a 10th Dan in the Tracy system when the founder should be the highest, is it because he is a 3rd to Mitose? Have'nt been able to figure that out either.

Actually dreams are where a lot of the more intense and dedicated people in all walks of life have gotten the idea and continued forth. Rejuvenated and with a new purpose.

Regards, Gary

 

[kelly keltner]

Geez Gary, let me give you my perspective. The answer is; that it is a matter of context . In regards to technique what could be considered soft to you could feel like a ton of bricks to the opponent if you hit him at the right time. consider the sucker punch. If the opponent never sees it comming then he takes the full force of the blow. If he sees it comming then he can flinch tightening up the body, intaking air and possiblly inducing a adrenal and endorphine release. I'm not saying anyone should go out and take a cheapshot at anyone. I'm saying look at it from the standpoint of what makes it possibly effective. Learn to use timming and distance in corolation with the understanding of visual plane, understand what is being seen by the opponent as well as what is not seen. Take that into consideration inthe performance of a technique. What does this have to do with spirituallty. To me it means the understanding that all things have a time and place. In the classroom, onthe street, or in personal relationships. The trick is understanding what is appropriate in each context.

kelly

 

[BlackCatBonz]

as far as hard and soft go......i have to agree with kell on this one to a certain point.
the hard or soft argument is a tough one for most "western" martial artists to get behind. everything i do is soft.....but from uke's point of view, my strikes may as well be a sledgehammer being fired from a cannon. a hard martial art to me suggests that you have to use much strength.
as for the naihanchi kata's being practiced with one's weight on their heels? that is something i would never do.....i perform all my kata's with the weight on the balls of my feet, unless the kata calls for me to put the weight on my heel as with the taijiquan form.
maybe you were just kidding gary.....lol
BUT some guys will take EVERYthing at face value, and thats how the whole misinformation thing starts and next thing you know, you have a holy war!!

shawn

 

[Karazenpo]

Hi Gary, I would like to give my idea on this following quote from your post: If Juchnik goes back to Mitose and Mitose was his teacher does that make him senior or junior to the others? Never have figured it out. In family lineage is he the son or a distant cousin/nephew like the rest?

Here's what I have a problem with, the "Mitose was his teacher and does that make him junior or senior to the others?" I don't feel but I totally believe your true lineage is your original lineage. Yes, you can be under Professor John Smith's lineage Tree and Gm. John Doe's but if Sijo John Hancock started you in kenpo/kempo, gave you your foundation and 'identity' and he was the one you spent the most time with from day one before you knew a front punch from a backfist, than he is your true and original lineage! Now, I'm under several lineages since my 3rd degree Black Belt, however, the instructor who brought me from white to black was Hanshi Craig Seavey whom I still train with today. Now about 3 years after my nidan I left the organization I made black with while under Hanshi Seavey. He had also left. It was Villari's original organization in New England. I left in the beginning of 1981. However, I was tested personally by Gm. Villari for 1st and 2nd because back then (I made my shodan in 1977) that's how it was, it was a much smaller group of schools with a 'much better' quality control and more centrally located in New England (other than Canada and Kuwait, yes, Kuwait!, lol.) Therefore, I'm under Villari's Family Tree sponsered by Craig Seavey (who currently heads Nick Cerio's Kenpo). The next instructor I spent the most time with was Professor Nick Cerio and I was personally tested by him also. I am directly under him in his Family Tree with rankings in both NCK and American Kenpo but my original lineage is still American Shaolin Kempo (as it was called then) under the Villari umbrella. Here's my point. I still have a problem with someone who takes a few lessons or spends minimal time with an instructor and then chooses them as their main lineage, their foundation and identity, especially basing it on prison visits. I don't mean to take a shot at Hanshi Juchnik whom I've heard many positive things about from several of my friends and peers, this is not my intention but it is something I strongly believe in and feel I have to express this when it comes up. Some martial artists whom I have a great deal of respect and admiration for have done similar so again please, to the Kosho people, don't take this personally or as a flame 'cause it's not! Just my opnion. Respectfully submitted, Professor Joe Shuras

 

[GAB]

Hi Professor,

If I open the door (invite the converstion) how can you cause a flame I am presenting a situation and looking for an answer, or and opinion.

If the thought is different then so be it, yours mine who evers.

The idea as to the original line is interesting but if in the mean time you inherit a system or are given a will to change the situation, does it then become yours?

Regards, Gary

 

[BlackCatBonz]

i agree with gary's final statement........ hanshi juchnik has trained with so many different people over the years, but in my opinion, i dont think mitose would have given hanshi carte blanche to do with kosho shorei kempo whatever he wanted had he not thought that he was a capable teacher, capable of understanding the principles and concepts, and capable of teaching the same. i dont think that people realise that kosho is not a technique based martial art like so many others. i have not learned a single technique since i have studied kosho, what i have learned are theories and principles to build upon, which in my opinion are more valuable than any technique from any martial art i had learned from prior. some arts have 1000 techniques or drills or waza, which can take years to master.......mitose sensei gave hanshi the tools to open the door of understanding all that is kosho and gave awarded him menkyo kaiden. not due to the learning of 2000 tech. but due to his understanding. does that make him direct lineage? in my book.....heck yeah!!

shawn

 

[GAB]

Hi Shawn,

I have been mulling it around for some time now (Juchnik/Mitose), trying to look at it from many different angles.

If we were to look at it through the eyes of the law of the land, USA,
it would be based on laws that have already been set down in the system to be acknowledged and therefore to be sustained.

Yep, he is the Hanshi, that is the bottom line. He has in good faith gone forth and has accomplished what he promised GGM Mitose what he would do.

Of course we have the Lineage of blood that Mitose said he was involved in. So do we have check or check mate?

I believe we have neither, what we have is the King and Queen doing there thing and the Parliment doing there's(if I can digress, which I did) It is that simple in my mind regarding that particular hanging thread.

Next, is he a follower or a leader? Well back to the law of the land he would be a leader. Pretty simple again.

One of the things that GGM Mitose warned Hanshi about was, to beware of
the Nit picker, so that is what we are seeing.

Come full circle and who is the leader and who is the follower?

Well like in many organizations we are discussing, we have numerous, Dr Sumner did a pretty good commentary about the way it was set up and in his mind it evolved as good as it could, given the circumstances.

The longer Hanshi is at the helm of the organization he is leading, the better his position will be, so it is similar to the organization of a Church the longer its around the stronger its position. Similar to a strong Bank or a Shipping firm.
We will now have to look at it like a business rather than a Martial Art.

Looking at the way GGM Thomas Mitose is allowing his part of the organization to be partly consumed by the Kajukenbo group, he is with his own volition, weakening his position respective to his fathers art.

I think that pretty much covers it in my estimation, we have seen the disolution of SGM EP and other Karate Institutions, for lack of a better word we will have to call it, "reorganization".

Some of the Kajukenbo have already done that, same as the SGM EP group that is now considered EPAK, but that is not fair because they are not under an umbrella, they are a lot of different branches of a tree.

We have seen a similar disintegration in the Tracy system, so we can not throw stones at any one Martial art, for there are many that have gone down this path.

I think Dan Inosanto with his Kali and then the JKD inheritance, probably was one of the smoothest.

Robert Trias tried to give it a smooth sail, but that was not roses either, or maybe it was, since roses come with thorns.

I was not considering those since they are not related to the single person who was instrumental in the Martial art we refer to as Kenpo/kempo.

Because they did a better job of transition, maybe, some of the leaders (claim to be) should look at it and try to duplicate it in the future.

I will consider it closed in my mind unless anyone can come up with something better.

The last thing I would like to say is, the heads of these organizations owe it to the followers (students) to have it go as smoothly as possible. If they can't do that, then shame on them.

Regards, Gary

 

[kelly keltner]

Hi Gary, I would like to give my idea on this following quote from your post: If Juchnik goes back to Mitose and Mitose was his teacher does that make him senior or junior to the others? Never have figured it out. In family lineage is he the son or a distant cousin/nephew like the rest?

Here's what I have a problem with, the "Mitose was his teacher and does that make him junior or senior to the others?" I don't feel but I totally believe your true lineage is your original lineage. Yes, you can be under Professor John Smith's lineage Tree and Gm. John Doe's but if Sijo John Hancock started you in kenpo/kempo, gave you your foundation and 'identity' and he was the one you spent the most time with from day one before you knew a front punch from a backfist, than he is your true and original lineage! Now, I'm under several lineages since my 3rd degree Black Belt, however, the instructor who brought me from white to black was Hanshi Craig Seavey whom I still train with today. Now about 3 years after my nidan I left the organization I made black with while under Hanshi Seavey. He had also left. It was Villari's original organization in New England. I left in the beginning of 1981. However, I was tested personally by Gm. Villari for 1st and 2nd because back then (I made my shodan in 1977) that's how it was, it was a much smaller group of schools with a 'much better' quality control and more centrally located in New England (other than Canada and Kuwait, yes, Kuwait!, lol.) Therefore, I'm under Villari's Family Tree sponsered by Craig Seavey (who currently heads Nick Cerio's Kenpo). The next instructor I spent the most time with was Professor Nick Cerio and I was personally tested by him also. I am directly under him in his Family Tree with rankings in both NCK and American Kenpo but my original lineage is still American Shaolin Kempo (as it was called then) under the Villari umbrella. Here's my point. I still have a problem with someone who takes a few lessons or spends minimal time with an instructor and then chooses them as their main lineage, their foundation and identity, especially basing it on prison visits. I don't mean to take a shot at Hanshi Juchnik whom I've heard many positive things about from several of my friends and peers, this is not my intention but it is something I strongly believe in and feel I have to express this when it comes up. Some martial artists whom I have a great deal of respect and admiration for have done similar so again please, to the Kosho people, don't take this personally or as a flame 'cause it's not! Just my opnion. Respectfully submitted, Professor Joe Shuras

The thing is Hanshi Juchnik's training before Mitose was mostly Tracy's kenpo some arnis and ecrima to name a few. I have seen all of these arts. The Kosho that Hanshi does is unlike any of these arts. If the basis of what he does did not come from Mitose, or if Mitose was a fraud. Then the bottom line is that Mr. Juchnik is a genious when it comes to understanding movement and motion. I am perfectly happy to accept that possibility. The next question might be: is Juchnik senior to most Kempo/kenpo practioners today, or is he the head of all kenpo/kempo? I have posed similar questions to him in the past. He doesn't purport to be the head of all kosho or anything. That argument possibly could be made, but you'll never see him make it.
He realizes that Tom Barros has his Kosho. Ray Arquilla has his kosho, Even people like James Muro they all have their different versions of what they do and that is fine. Does he agree with everything they do and say maybe not? But I can guarrantee this he has respect for all of them, even if he doesn't agree with all that they do or say.

kelly

 

[kelly keltner]

The thing is Hanshi Juchnik's training before Mitose was mostly Tracy's kenpo some arnis and ecrima to name a few. I have seen all of these arts. The Kosho that Hanshi does is unlike any of these arts. If the basis of what he does did not come from Mitose, or if Mitose was a fraud. Then the bottom line is that Mr. Juchnik is a genious when it comes to understanding movement and motion. I am perfectly happy to accept that possibility. The next question might be: is Juchnik senior to most Kempo/kenpo practioners today, or is he the head of all kenpo/kempo? I have posed similar questions to him in the past. He doesn't purport to be the head of all kosho or anything. That argument possibly could be made, but you'll never see him make it.
He realizes that Tom Barros has his Kosho. Ray Arquilla has his kosho, Even people like James Muro they all have their different versions of what they do and that is fine. Does he agree with everything they do and say maybe not? But I can guarrantee this he has respect for all of them, even if he doesn't agree with all that they do or say.

kelly

let me clear this up cause it was late when I wrote it and is a little unclear as I read it this morning. Bruce says that he is the head of his version of kosho, skski and macs. It's ok with him that different lineages exist. That's what I meant when I said he doesn't say he's head of all kosho.

kelly

 

[Karazenpo]

I understand where you guys are coming from and I do see your points and I can agree with you on many of them. It's just that in this 'version' of Kosho the Mitose 'connection' is always made in regards to his original teachings, his principles and concepts. By the way, Hanshi Juchnik has done Kosho techgniques with breakdowns of movements in several layouts in martial arts magazines of the past, it appears to me, anyway, that he has or had a curriculum of Kosho techniques that he taught. I, too, am against the hundreds of techniques taught by some systems and I feel all martial arts are taught utilizing principles and concepts, they would have to be, however, it was Ed Parker who put a name on it and then everyone else picked up on it. Physics, kiniesiology, body mechacanics, whatever, is all science, laws of nature, nobody made them up, they were always there but some just know how to apply them better than others. Okay, getting back to this Mitose connection to his original teachings and so forth, this is how I see it. If I wanted to get as close as possible to the true Kosho and teachings of Mitose I would seek out someone directly from the Thomas Young lineage before any of the names previously mentioned including Hanshi Juchnik, with all due respect. Let's face it, Thomas Young was his first Hawaiian-derived Kenpo black belt, the most senior Kenpo student of Kosho. He stayed with the system for life and was responsible for adding many of the 'Okinawan' forms that he had originally asked Mitose permission to do. I know from reading these posts that Bruce Juchnik had been in contact with Young over the years but that's not my point. My point is wouldn't Young's Kosho be the closest thing out there to the original Kosho that you guys are seeking? Wouldn't Professor Young also have these same principles and concepts? Not to mention the fact he actually physically trained with Mitose in those years rather than being told to go seek out information on his own and then give your 'prespective' of it. Wasn't it Thomas Young who really perserved Mitose's teachings? The other thing I noticed is that Kosho Shorei Ryu appears to be, remember I said 'appears' (I'll be the first to say I'm by no means an expert in your art) to be adopted from traditional Okinawan Kempo Karate. Aren't the curriculum of katas that Hanshi Juchnik added to the system from Okinawan Kempo? The forms of a system are said to reflect the principles and concepts of the art they represent, I mean, they would have too! After all, Shotokan forms were modified to teach principles and concepts of Japanese karate, not Chinese Kung Fu! On the surface it does appear to others that Kosho Shorei Ryu is an eclectic blend of Tracy's Kenpo and Okinawan Kenpo Karate with a dash of arnis and there's nothing wrong with that either, all systems are blends of something, it gives 'balance'. Again, I totally agree with Hanshi's legitimacy in teaching his own art. He certainly has the time in grade, knowledge and credentials to be the head of his own system but many just have a hard time believing this system of Kosho is the only system that has preserved the teachings of James Mitose, especially with the very limited training connection, as some say, if any, (prison visits) between Juchnik and Mitose. It is my opinion that this is where the controversy lies but other than for discussion purposes it makes no difference to me one way or the other for it's not my system to defend. Respectfully, Professor Joe Shuras

 

[KenpoDave]

Okay, getting back to this Mitose connection to his original teachings and so forth, this is how I see it. If I wanted to get as close as possible to the true Kosho and teachings of Mitose I would seek out someone directly from the Thomas Young lineage before any of the names previously mentioned including Hanshi Juchnik.

Lisa Chun, who trained under Mitose as Mitose's sister's training partner, while she was dating Chow, came and trained at the Tracy's school in Lexington for a number of months while she was living there.

She told us that the kenpo we practiced and the way we taught it was "exactly like what she learned in Hawaii" from Mitose.

That being said, I don't think anyone currently has all the information on the original kenpo that was taught in the US. I think several people have large (and different) pieces of the puzzle though.

 

[John Bishop]

i dont think mitose would have given hanshi carte blanche to do with kosho shorei kempo whatever he wanted had he not thought that he was a capable teacher, capable of understanding the principles and concepts, and capable of teaching the same.

.......mitose sensei gave hanshi the tools to open the door of understanding all that is kosho and gave awarded him menkyo kaiden. not due to the learning of 2000 tech. but due to his understanding. does that make him direct lineage? in my book.....heck yeah!!

shawn

Lets be real here. James Mitose basically taught Kenpo in Hawaii for about 9 years, and promoted 6 black belts. He did this to make a living along with running a brothel during the WWII years.
He then moved to California and worked as a janitor. During his California years he concieved various schemes to defraud Japanese business owners of large sums of money. He masquraded as a "Minister", "Doctor of Divinity", and "Herbal Doctor". All titles that were proven in court to be made up.
During the 20 years he lived in California, prior to going to prison, he had only 1 known student, who he taught for a total of 7 weeks. This student was groomed to be his enforcer. At Mitose's request he attacked a elderly couple who were going to the District Attorney to file fraud charges against Mitose. The 69 year old man was killed, and the woman was severly beaten.
After he went to prison, a handful of sincere Kenpo practitioners seeking historical knowledge started to visit him. Mitose did to them what he did to everyone he could use. He told them whatever they wanted to hear in exchange for what he wanted. Does anyone really think he was worried about the future of Kosho Ryu Kenpo? If he was, why did he only teach 1 student in the 20 years before he went to prison?
He was in prison for life! He used these sincere men to set up a means to pay for the attorney's he needed to appeal his case. He also used them and his "Peaceful Martial Arts Philosophy" to boost his chances for a parole.
In reality Mitose was a manipulative, cruel, and vicious animal, not a man of peace. In the end he got exactly what he deserved, diabedes, blindness, a debilitating stroke, and death.

 

[Kosho-Monk]

In reality Mitose was a manipulative, cruel, and vicious animal, not a man of peace. In the end he got exactly what he deserved, diabedes, blindness, a debilitating stroke, and death.

John Bishop,

I found your last statement about Mitose's death to be quite disturbing. I cannot believe that Sijo Emperado would support a senior member of the Kajukenbo community saying that.



All,

Must we always focus on the negative aspects of James Mitose's life? Can we not simply accept that in the end James Mitose's intentions for keeping the art of Kempo alive were pure? And even if you cannot accept that, how does it serve you to continue bashing his memory? It doesn't.

If I spent all the time I could debating the life of James Mitose, I'd never actually grow in the Kempo that he shared with all of us.

Until we can all move forward and stop bashing the memory of the late James Mitose, we will not be able to heal as a martial arts community. There is so much separation within our groups.

Let's focus on the positive things that are happening currently in the martial arts.

Hanshi Juchnik is holding another "Gathering" in Portland, OR next month. (Sep. 25-26) Hanshi puts on this event in hopes that practitioners of all the martial groups can set aside their hate and anger for each other, and train in the spirit of peace and love. I invite each of you to attend this wonderful event and grow together in the martial arts.

I will be there learning right beside practitioners of several arts. I look forward to meeting each of you..... and learning from you as well.


With respect,
John Evans


May Peace Prevail on Earth!! (and in the martial arts community!!)

 

[John Bishop]

John Bishop,

I found your last statement about Mitose's death to be quite disturbing. I cannot believe that Sijo Emperado would support a senior member of the Kajukenbo community saying that.

Exactly what I'm talking about. A lack of realistic thinking. You find my statements "quite disturbing", but yet you strive to protect the memory of someone who's actions, (not statements) were dishonest, cruel, and murderous.

Let's face it, Mitose made several claims during his lifetime. Some of the biggest ones:

1. "He attended seminary after moving to California" Proven in court to be false.
2. "He was a ordained minister with the First Methodist Episcapal Church" Proven in court to be false.
3. "He received a Doctor of Divinity degree". Proven in court to be false.
4. "Choki Motobu was his uncle". Proven to be false by the son of Choki Motobu.

All major claims. All false. But yet some people have no problem accepting his claim that he was raised in a Buddhist temple, and that he was the 21st generation "Great Grandmaster of Kosho Ryu Kenpo".

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

Exactly what I'm talking about. A lack of realistic thinking. You find my statements "quite disturbing", but yet you strive to protect the memory of someone who's actions, (not statements) were dishonest, cruel, and murderous.

Let's face it, Mitose made several claims during his lifetime. Some of the biggest ones:

1. "He attended seminary after moving to California" Proven in court to be false.
2. "He was a ordained minister with the First Methodist Episcapal Church" Proven in court to be false.
3. "He received a Doctor of Divinity degree". Proven in court to be false.
4. "Choki Motobu was his uncle". Proven to be false by the son of Choki Motobu.

All major claims. All false. But yet some people have no problem accepting his claim that he was raised in a Buddhist temple, and that he was the 21st generation "Great Grandmaster of Kosho Ryu Kenpo".

Sometimes pointy TRUTH stick jabbing is necessary. I hate subtlety.

DarK LorD

 

[kelly keltner]

I understand where you guys are coming from and I do see your points and I can agree with you on many of them. It's just that in this 'version' of Kosho the Mitose 'connection' is always made in regards to his original teachings, his principles and concepts. By the way, Hanshi Juchnik has done Kosho techgniques with breakdowns of movements in several layouts in martial arts magazines of the past, it appears to me, anyway, that he has or had a curriculum of Kosho techniques that he taught. I, too, am against the hundreds of techniques taught by some systems and I feel all martial arts are taught utilizing principles and concepts, they would have to be, however, it was Ed Parker who put a name on it and then everyone else picked up on it. Physics, kiniesiology, body mechacanics, whatever, is all science, laws of nature, nobody made them up, they were always there but some just know how to apply them better than others. Okay, getting back to this Mitose connection to his original teachings and so forth, this is how I see it. If I wanted to get as close as possible to the true Kosho and teachings of Mitose I would seek out someone directly from the Thomas Young lineage before any of the names previously mentioned including Hanshi Juchnik, with all due respect. Let's face it, Thomas Young was his first Hawaiian-derived Kenpo black belt, the most senior Kenpo student of Kosho. He stayed with the system for life and was responsible for adding many of the 'Okinawan' forms that he had originally asked Mitose permission to do. I know from reading these posts that Bruce Juchnik had been in contact with Young over the years but that's not my point. My point is wouldn't Young's Kosho be the closest thing out there to the original Kosho that you guys are seeking? Wouldn't Professor Young also have these same principles and concepts? Not to mention the fact he actually physically trained with Mitose in those years rather than being told to go seek out information on his own and then give your 'prespective' of it. Wasn't it Thomas Young who really perserved Mitose's teachings? The other thing I noticed is that Kosho Shorei Ryu appears to be, remember I said 'appears' (I'll be the first to say I'm by no means an expert in your art) to be adopted from traditional Okinawan Kempo Karate. Aren't the curriculum of katas that Hanshi Juchnik added to the system from Okinawan Kempo? The forms of a system are said to reflect the principles and concepts of the art they represent, I mean, they would have too! After all, Shotokan forms were modified to teach principles and concepts of Japanese karate, not Chinese Kung Fu! On the surface it does appear to others that Kosho Shorei Ryu is an eclectic blend of Tracy's Kenpo and Okinawan Kenpo Karate with a dash of arnis and there's nothing wrong with that either, all systems are blends of something, it gives 'balance'. Again, I totally agree with Hanshi's legitimacy in teaching his own art. He certainly has the time in grade, knowledge and credentials to be the head of his own system but many just have a hard time believing this system of Kosho is the only system that has preserved the teachings of James Mitose, especially with the very limited training connection, as some say, if any, (prison visits) between Juchnik and Mitose. It is my opinion that this is where the controversy lies but other than for discussion purposes it makes no difference to me one way or the other for it's not my system to defend. Respectfully, Professor Joe Shuras

Just when I thought this thread was dead. Bamm there is still life in the old girl yet.
Let me see if I can shed some light on some of this.
First when refering to the origonal teachings and concepts. As far as techniques in regards to origonal teachings. Hanshi does not profess to do that. In the begining of every tape hanshi has. A statement is made. " the kai was developed to preserve the teachings of the late James Mitose." He doesn't say from what time period. He doesn't use the word origonal. The origonal teachings Mitose taught consisted of Makiwara training and kata. Yes that woud be naihanchi an Okinawan kata. Wasn't almost every martial arts system with the exclusion of mabe jujitsu doing thse katas weren't they fairly common? Many of the katas we do in Kosho are Okinawan some such as the pinan series are done in the Japanese fashion meaning that pinan shodan and nidans sequence would be flipped. Pinan shodan in Okinawan systems would be our nidan and vice versa. If the story Mitose states is true. Then why would he teach his family art to anyone in Hawaii especially non japanese, But what he could do is teach from another art he picked up while living in Japan that would serve his purpose without giving away his family art. Hence calling it Kenpo Jujitsu or Jujitsu (kempo) as it is written on Thomas Young's Certificate. Just an opinion of mine I'm Not saying it's gospel truth. So if you wanted to learn exactly what Mitose taught, yes you would go back to Young but who's to say during that time period Mitose actually taught his family art in Hawaii in the early years. As far as the statement that shotokan forms were developed to teach the principals and concepts of Japanese karate, Not Chinese kung fu. You need to remember shotokan comes from Funakoshi, Funakoshi was taught by Azato and Itosu their lineage goes back to Bushi Matsumura. They were all Okinawan and their lineage goes back to China. Yes the forms they did were developed, shaped and changed by the different practicioners and those practioners were influenced my the different mindsets and prejudices within their cultures.

On to a different portion of my reply. To the subject of techniques in Kosho Ryu. We do not have pre-arranged techniques. We have basics Which would be like stances. hand and foot weapon formation. different kicks and punches ect. We also study timming and distancing, posture positiong and strategy.
As far as the techniques in the articles he makes them up on the spot. He does the same with his video tapes. I have been there for some of the magazine shoots, and I have shot many of his tapes/dvd's myself there are no scripts. He takes a topic and runs with it. Compare that with a well known fillipino practioner I shot video for 4-5 years ago who took 19 hours to put 12 techniques on tape. Compre that with mabe 1-2 hr shoot time for hanshi.

I have studied enough escrima, kenpo, karate and gung fu to know that the Kosho we do is somewhat simalar to these arts in some respects but is very different in others. We don't have techniques like five swords or outside for a number one. so saying that kosho is some of this sprinkled with some of that is correct but at the same time inncorect. Most of these arts don't teach you about timming and how it relates to visual plane and posture, These are just some of the things we learn in kosho. If Mitose made it all up then so what. Once again that would mean Juchnik took what he learned and turned it into to something great that makes him a genious.

kelly

 

[GAB]

Hi John,

Sound's pretty convincing to me.
Sometimes the truth hurts, but if it is the truth, well.
I stated my case and you have stated some extra information and it sounds convincing.

Does that make the other people who studied and created the system we know now, Al Tracy's system and Ray Arquilla any less?
Or is Hanshi Juchnik system any worse?

No not in my mind.

I think we ought to let this subject rest in peace and go on fresh and look forward to the next topic.

I think Dark Lord placed the last nail.

Regards, Gary

 

[Karazenpo]

Just when I thought this thread was dead. Bamm there is still life in the old girl yet.
Let me see if I can shed some light on some of this.
First when refering to the origonal teachings and concepts. As far as techniques in regards to origonal teachings. Hanshi does not profess to do that. In the begining of every tape hanshi has. A statement is made. " the kai was developed to preserve the teachings of the late James Mitose." He doesn't say from what time period. He doesn't use the word origonal. The origonal teachings Mitose taught consisted of Makiwara training and kata. Yes that woud be naihanchi an Okinawan kata. Wasn't almost every martial arts system with the exclusion of mabe jujitsu doing thse katas weren't they fairly common? Many of the katas we do in Kosho are Okinawan some such as the pinan series are done in the Japanese fashion meaning that pinan shodan and nidans sequence would be flipped. Pinan shodan in Okinawan systems would be our nidan and vice versa. If the story Mitose states is true. Then why would he teach his family art to anyone in Hawaii especially non japanese, But what he could do is teach from another art he picked up while living in Japan that would serve his purpose without giving away his family art. Hence calling it Kenpo Jujitsu or Jujitsu (kempo) as it is written on Thomas Young's Certificate. Just an opinion of mine I'm Not saying it's gospel truth. So if you wanted to learn exactly what Mitose taught, yes you would go back to Young but who's to say during that time period Mitose actually taught his family art in Hawaii in the early years. As far as the statement that shotokan forms were developed to teach the principals and concepts of Japanese karate, Not Chinese kung fu. You need to remember shotokan comes from Funakoshi, Funakoshi was taught by Azato and Itosu their lineage goes back to Bushi Matsumura. They were all Okinawan and their lineage goes back to China. Yes the forms they did were developed, shaped and changed by the different practicioners and those practioners were influenced my the different mindsets and prejudices within their cultures.

On to a different portion of my reply. To the subject of techniques in Kosho Ryu. We do not have pre-arranged techniques. We have basics Which would be like stances. hand and foot weapon formation. different kicks and punches ect. We also study timming and distancing, posture positiong and strategy.
As far as the techniques in the articles he makes them up on the spot. He does the same with his video tapes. I have been there for some of the magazine shoots, and I have shot many of his tapes/dvd's myself there are no scripts. He takes a topic and runs with it. Compare that with a well known fillipino practioner I shot video for 4-5 years ago who took 19 hours to put 12 techniques on tape. Compre that with mabe 1-2 hr shoot time for hanshi.

I have studied enough escrima, kenpo, karate and gung fu to know that the Kosho we do is somewhat simalar to these arts in some respects but is very different in others. We don't have techniques like five swords or outside for a number one. so saying that kosho is some of this sprinkled with some of that is correct but at the same time inncorect. Most of these arts don't teach you about timming and how it relates to visual plane and posture, These are just some of the things we learn in kosho. If Mitose made it all up then so what. Once again that would mean Juchnik took what he learned and turned it into to something great that makes him a genious.

kelly

C'ome on kelly. I knew when I gave that Shotokan example someone was going to say Funakoshi was Okinawan and his teachings were influenced from China and I was almost going to erase it but really....everyone knows that everything came originally from China when it comes to our arts. You don't think I knew that? Besides, it makes no difference because I was emphasizing PERSPECTIVES and please, Shotokan is about as far from Kung Fu as you're going to get! You know that! Now, this thing about Mitose's family art is about to be going down the tube and I got that from a very, very reliable source. HE NEVER LEFT HAWAII and I challenge anyone on this forum to give positive proof that he did because I know positive proof that he didn't will be coming out soon. And again, Hanshi Juchnik, head of Mitose's system should have this proof at his disposal and has been invited by John Bishop and others to join our forum. He would not be 'flamed' but given the respect we give each other in voicing or opinions and perspectives but EVIDENTALLY HE REFUSES AND THE ANSWER IS SIMPLE: MITOSE NEVER LEFT HAWAII! I now believe this whole Shaka In Temple thing is another Mitose sham or you guys would have come up with something else but rhetoric by now. Also, in the back of my mind I was thinking the same thing John Bishop had posted when he said Mitose's Kosho Ryu thing when he was in prison was another scam of trapping some honest and sincere people into doing his bidding as he did with Terry Lee back in 1971! He was setting these good people up to help him with a 'get out of jail card' early! As John Bishop reminded you, please link the word MANIPULATION with James Mitose! If I knew John and I were going to get slammed by this nonsense then I wouldn't have been so polite as to leave that out of my post! Here's reality: Mitose was a criminal of the worst kind and as I'm sure Gary will agree being a seasoned police officer like myself and John Bishop, this is how a con man works!!! Yes, he started this kenpo thing. I give him credit for that! He trained in Okinawan Shorei Ryu Kempo Karate of the Motobu lineage with some exposure to Danzan Ryu. HE NEVER MADE BLACK BELT in either system but that doesn't bother me because back then many didn't when they went on to develop their systems. Things were different then. A black belt then was like a grandmaster today and if you had some serious training in the arts which I believe he had in Okinawan Kenpo than that would probably be equivalent of a black belt in the 60's and 70's and look how many first and second degrees went on to establish their own systems back then! I'll give him that much and he deserves it but the rest is fantasy! Like I said any experienced cop can pick up on the M.O. of a con man and James Mitose is very easy to figure out. Police work is my livelihood and without trying to sound cocky, I'm very good at it and so isn't John Bishop. Please think about what we are saying because eventually something is going to give and most of the truth will come out. In closing, please post the evidense of Mitose's family art and Shaka In in Japan and let us check it out and if you guys are right I'll be the first to make a public apology here on this forum. Respectfully submitted, Professor Joe Shuras

PS: One other thing, I feel we have the proof of Mitose never leaving Hawaii, therefore never trained in Japan but remember it is the Kosho people who make this claim and even if we didn't have the evidence that he did, it is incumbent upon you to prove that he had. It is your claim, not ours!

 

[kelly keltner]

I don't know if sincere is the word to describe Terry Lee, but if you say so ok. I never said Mitose wasn't a criminal

kell

 

[Karazenpo]

I don't know if sincere is the word to describe Terry Lee, but if you say so ok.

kell

Kelly, you definitely misunderstood my post when I said SINCERE! Where the heck does Terry 'The Killer' Lee come into this???? I'm talking about the guys who made those prison visits and who I had foremost in mind was Professor Eugene Sedeno who I have the utmost respect and admiration for!! You're telling me that Terry Lee visited Mitose in prison? If so I never heard that one before.