F
fringe_dweller
Guest
Aren't you forgetting Do Ju Nim...?
Sorry - only korean word I knew that you hadn't used....
Sorry - only korean word I knew that you hadn't used....
- Status
Ryushikan,
You found that out all on your own, and you are not even a student or potential student of Jack Stern?
Gad, imagine what the person close to him could find out if they bothered to.
People always say check out an instructor before you take the first class with them. To miss something on the CNN web site before you went out and served as a representative of a man like Jack Stern.... Well, the best I can say about that person is that I would never trust his judgement again without proof.
You found that out all on your own, and you are not even a student or potential student of Jack Stern?
Gad, imagine what the person close to him could find out if they bothered to.
People always say check out an instructor before you take the first class with them. To miss something on the CNN web site before you went out and served as a representative of a man like Jack Stern.... Well, the best I can say about that person is that I would never trust his judgement again without proof.
R
RyuShiKan
Guest
Yeah.........imagine.
Of course I can choose not to believe a respected news agency like CNN since they, like many other folks, are on a “vendetta” to get Ol’ “Papa-san”
OP
OP
MartialArtist
Guest
Yup, that is correct. There are also a few more terms
kyo sah nim - Usually meant for just the everyday teacher helpers, usually 1st-3rd dan.
sah bum nim is usually meant for 4th dans to 7th dans.
Chung sah nim is a title usually given to 8th dans
And 9th degrees are associated as kwan jang nims.
OP
OP
MartialArtist
Guest
From what I've heard, the whole story on Jack Stern was pretty big all over the media, and a lot of people in Florida should have at least heard of the incident.
I mean, when people lie, at least make it believable. The Congressional Medal of Honor? WTF? And I was the 42nd president of the United States. And the humorous thing is when he told everyone that his son was a gold medalist in the 1987 Olympics... There was no 1987 Olympics, and anyone can easily check to see if his son actually did win a medal or was even in the Olympic qualifications via internet in a few minutes.
I mean, when people lie, at least make it believable. The Congressional Medal of Honor? WTF? And I was the 42nd president of the United States. And the humorous thing is when he told everyone that his son was a gold medalist in the 1987 Olympics... There was no 1987 Olympics, and anyone can easily check to see if his son actually did win a medal or was even in the Olympic qualifications via internet in a few minutes.
Matt Stone
Master of Arts
Folks have said before that associations, organizations and other such things are the devil...
They may not be far off the mark.
Folks have said before that associations, organizations and other such things are necessary for the survival and expansion of an art...
They are dead on the money.
I think that the information provided above just goes to show that you never really know people, and that you should really research anything you are going to align your name and reputation with.
I had a MAist solicit me to join his organization, and to join other organizations he belonged to (apparently he got some sort of recognition for getting referrals). I checked them out on the internet, read their websites along with commentary on boards like this one (though not MT specifically), and decided it was best not to get involved with them.
Some folks don't do their homework, and take a person at their word. Some don't. Some get burned. ***** happens.
Gambarimasu.
:asian:
They may not be far off the mark.
Folks have said before that associations, organizations and other such things are necessary for the survival and expansion of an art...
They are dead on the money.
I think that the information provided above just goes to show that you never really know people, and that you should really research anything you are going to align your name and reputation with.
I had a MAist solicit me to join his organization, and to join other organizations he belonged to (apparently he got some sort of recognition for getting referrals). I checked them out on the internet, read their websites along with commentary on boards like this one (though not MT specifically), and decided it was best not to get involved with them.
Some folks don't do their homework, and take a person at their word. Some don't. Some get burned. ***** happens.
Gambarimasu.
:asian:
C
chufeng
Guest
It appears that the concensus is in on this particular issue...
Personally, if I'd been duped, I'd cut my losses and end the affiliation.
I got burned by a TKD teacher once...it took me six months to figure it out, but when I did, I split...
But I learned a valuable lesson about researching the background of my next teacher...and I exercised that lesson.
:asian:
chufeng
Personally, if I'd been duped, I'd cut my losses and end the affiliation.
I got burned by a TKD teacher once...it took me six months to figure it out, but when I did, I split...
But I learned a valuable lesson about researching the background of my next teacher...and I exercised that lesson.
:asian:
chufeng
D
Disco
Guest
The ongoing battle royal has taken yet another turn. This time though, I think the party in question is not the bad guy but the victim. Yes, in hindsight he should have done some homework instead of trusting. The only crime commited was that of being naive. People have taken time to research for this material. The opperative word is time. How long has this conflict been going on and this just surfaced? The particular incident happened in 1996 and this is the first I've ever heard of it. Unless it was a major nationwide headline, it's my guess that I'm not alone in my ignorance. Common sense dictates that if ARK did know about this, aligning one's self publicly amounts to making a fool out of yourself. It would come to light, just as it has now. As Yiliquan 1 and Chufeng have pointed out, he got burned. Not for being deceitful, but for being human and trusting. Throughout all of these proceedings, from the very start, he (ARK) has stayed and not sheepishly trundled off and disappeared. All the changes he has made was due to constructive criticism. I applaud those who pointed it out and I also applaud him for making the changes so readily. If the man was harboring any decietful ambitions, there is no way he would/should open himself up to this constant scrutiny. Like all of us, we all would like acceptance from our peers. Some go about it a little more zealous than other's. That unto itself does not make someone a bad person. Just MHO
:asian:
:asian:
I think the big lesson here is to not trust, but verify.
A.R.K. does not seem to want to believe that Jack Stern is a fraud. He seems to believe that it was some sort of trap by someone in the police department and his conviction in a court of law is not his fault. But the rest of us are pretty certain that Stern is a complete fraud. Whenever I am told to put aside my suspicions and questions and just engage in learning from each other, I am going to remember Jack Stern.
Honestly, this took me less than 15 minutes of checking on the internet to find the original article. I do even more checking when I am thinking about attending a seminar with a person. Were I to join and serve as a representative of an orginization, I would realize the responsibility that entails and really research the group before joining. Those of us considering teaching someday have a responsibility to those that trust us. We just can't enjoy the perks of being called "sensei" or "Florida Representative" and the respect we expect from such titles.
All this should be done before we open our mouths. To see someone come ona board and have almost all of the claims that can be checked shot down one by one over a course of months is just plain sad. Honestly, before we lecture others we need to make sure that all of what we claim is not going to embarrass us later. It is not just a matter of avoiding embarrasment, it is about actually caring about the people we claim to be trying to help by instructing them. Those that show little responsibilty before jumping into the role of wise 'ol teacher really do not earn a lot of respect in my book. If I make a mistake in training, I may die on the street. If I make a mistake in what I pass on to others- all of a sudden I may have multiple deaths laid at my feet.
There are fruads out there. What they teach can cause harm to others. They tend to need to have people pay attention to them and so they are louder and more active in trying to "help" others than someone who is truely self confident about what they are. So we are more likely to run across them in cyberspace and elsewhere than the guy busy trying to be the best he can. We need to be cautious and verify all we can. And when people refuse, like I am sure Jack Stern did when people asked him, we are totally justified in saying that this person shows sign of being a fraud. (I can here it now- "I told you what division and year my son won hisOlympic gold medal in- I have done almost everything except dial the number for you- what more do you need to trust me?") Stern was convicted in 1996, by at least 2001 he was back again fooling others. Frauds just move on to the next story when they are caught and think no one else will remember. No matter how many times you nail them, they always come back with another story to try to impress others. So we need to be vigilent a slong as they are out there.
There are too many sad individuals like Jack Stern out there in the world to give any kind of trust. Everything someone claims is their responsibility to verify. I wish we could do otherwise, but this example shows the trouble with wishfull thinking.
A.R.K. does not seem to want to believe that Jack Stern is a fraud. He seems to believe that it was some sort of trap by someone in the police department and his conviction in a court of law is not his fault. But the rest of us are pretty certain that Stern is a complete fraud. Whenever I am told to put aside my suspicions and questions and just engage in learning from each other, I am going to remember Jack Stern.
Honestly, this took me less than 15 minutes of checking on the internet to find the original article. I do even more checking when I am thinking about attending a seminar with a person. Were I to join and serve as a representative of an orginization, I would realize the responsibility that entails and really research the group before joining. Those of us considering teaching someday have a responsibility to those that trust us. We just can't enjoy the perks of being called "sensei" or "Florida Representative" and the respect we expect from such titles.
All this should be done before we open our mouths. To see someone come ona board and have almost all of the claims that can be checked shot down one by one over a course of months is just plain sad. Honestly, before we lecture others we need to make sure that all of what we claim is not going to embarrass us later. It is not just a matter of avoiding embarrasment, it is about actually caring about the people we claim to be trying to help by instructing them. Those that show little responsibilty before jumping into the role of wise 'ol teacher really do not earn a lot of respect in my book. If I make a mistake in training, I may die on the street. If I make a mistake in what I pass on to others- all of a sudden I may have multiple deaths laid at my feet.
There are fruads out there. What they teach can cause harm to others. They tend to need to have people pay attention to them and so they are louder and more active in trying to "help" others than someone who is truely self confident about what they are. So we are more likely to run across them in cyberspace and elsewhere than the guy busy trying to be the best he can. We need to be cautious and verify all we can. And when people refuse, like I am sure Jack Stern did when people asked him, we are totally justified in saying that this person shows sign of being a fraud. (I can here it now- "I told you what division and year my son won hisOlympic gold medal in- I have done almost everything except dial the number for you- what more do you need to trust me?") Stern was convicted in 1996, by at least 2001 he was back again fooling others. Frauds just move on to the next story when they are caught and think no one else will remember. No matter how many times you nail them, they always come back with another story to try to impress others. So we need to be vigilent a slong as they are out there.
There are too many sad individuals like Jack Stern out there in the world to give any kind of trust. Everything someone claims is their responsibility to verify. I wish we could do otherwise, but this example shows the trouble with wishfull thinking.
A
A.R.K.
Guest
Chufeng and Disco, many thanks for your posts.
I think Don's intent is two fold. First this bit of information, which I've known about for a month or so, diverts from him having to answer some of my questions in which he would lose a bit of face. It is a common debators tactic. Second, it is yet another 'shadow' he wishes to cast on me in the pursuit of his agenda
Any negative light cast by KYHA affects me in the same way as the Kukkiwon and all of their dirty laundry affects a TKD practitioner i.e. it doesn't.
Yiliquan 1's statement is a valid one...
Very good advice. I've been researching this before anyone else here albiet after the fact. But better late than never. Don, you want me desperately to 'disavow' things so that things 'clear up' around here. I will not disavow anything because there is no reason to. You lying through your teeth and playing at debator's tactics such as 'handwaving', 'straw man' and evasion have not proven anything.
You state...
What claims are those Don? Is it the soke thing that has so plauged Robert? That is not a claim, that is a simple language mistake. And one cleared up quite some time ago. My rank? Where has that been shot down Don? I mean specifically cut n paste the shot. I hope Robert's alleged phone call isn't the tid bit your hanging your hat on Don
And you still have yet to answer my question about the Pangainoon offshoot comment. You said you would be convinced if I could show you the comment as stated on this board. I showed you and asked if, being true to your own words, you were convinced. I've asked 3 or 4 times now in as many threads. What is the answer Don? Why do you continually evade this question. And why can't you be honest in your comments? Why all the negative inflections in your comments? Why make deceitful comments such as the one above?
Robert, welcome back. I knew you weren't really going to leave. But a bit dishonest isn't it, saying you were only back to use the PM function and here you are posting :shrug: And thank you for not sending me more obscene email. And you've managed to cut down on the hate email to one a day. Perhaps your improving?
Back to the topic. Don states I'm defending Mr. Stern. Well, he's again trying to state something as fact that hasn't happened. What I have done is objectively post what I have seen and researched thus far. I have seen those against him lie or distort the truth to further their position. If their position is as solid as many claim, why not have the integrity to sign their emails? Why lie when asked who sent the email? Why lie about his rank status? Was he convicted of a crime? Yes he was...a second degree misd which is the same level as jay walking or catching a fish 1 inch under the limit. A second degree misd just doesn't impress me because who here hasn't done something in their lifetime that they couldn't be arrested for?
I'm a veteran, and a decorated one. [Don feel free to research it]. If the entire account is accurate, no I'm not overly thrilled. But I'm old enough to know there is a bit more to the whole story than just what is in some internet articles. Again, I will bide my time. And again, either way my credentials were set already and KYHA has merely been an avenue to renew my links with Middle Eastern MA's. It doesn't reflect on my system or abilities.
Cheers
:asian:
I think Don's intent is two fold. First this bit of information, which I've known about for a month or so, diverts from him having to answer some of my questions in which he would lose a bit of face. It is a common debators tactic. Second, it is yet another 'shadow' he wishes to cast on me in the pursuit of his agenda
Any negative light cast by KYHA affects me in the same way as the Kukkiwon and all of their dirty laundry affects a TKD practitioner i.e. it doesn't.
Yiliquan 1's statement is a valid one...
Very good advice. I've been researching this before anyone else here albiet after the fact. But better late than never. Don, you want me desperately to 'disavow' things so that things 'clear up' around here. I will not disavow anything because there is no reason to. You lying through your teeth and playing at debator's tactics such as 'handwaving', 'straw man' and evasion have not proven anything.
You state...
What claims are those Don? Is it the soke thing that has so plauged Robert? That is not a claim, that is a simple language mistake. And one cleared up quite some time ago. My rank? Where has that been shot down Don? I mean specifically cut n paste the shot
And you still have yet to answer my question about the Pangainoon offshoot comment. You said you would be convinced if I could show you the comment as stated on this board. I showed you and asked if, being true to your own words, you were convinced. I've asked 3 or 4 times now in as many threads. What is the answer Don? Why do you continually evade this question. And why can't you be honest in your comments? Why all the negative inflections in your comments? Why make deceitful comments such as the one above?
Robert, welcome back. I knew you weren't really going to leave. But a bit dishonest isn't it, saying you were only back to use the PM function and here you are posting :shrug: And thank you for not sending me more obscene email. And you've managed to cut down on the hate email to one a day. Perhaps your improving?
Back to the topic. Don states I'm defending Mr. Stern. Well, he's again trying to state something as fact that hasn't happened. What I have done is objectively post what I have seen and researched thus far. I have seen those against him lie or distort the truth to further their position. If their position is as solid as many claim, why not have the integrity to sign their emails? Why lie when asked who sent the email? Why lie about his rank status? Was he convicted of a crime? Yes he was...a second degree misd which is the same level as jay walking or catching a fish 1 inch under the limit. A second degree misd just doesn't impress me because who here hasn't done something in their lifetime that they couldn't be arrested for?
I'm a veteran, and a decorated one. [Don feel free to research it]. If the entire account is accurate, no I'm not overly thrilled. But I'm old enough to know there is a bit more to the whole story than just what is in some internet articles. Again, I will bide my time. And again, either way my credentials were set already and KYHA has merely been an avenue to renew my links with Middle Eastern MA's. It doesn't reflect on my system or abilities.
Cheers
:asian:
Matt Stone
Master of Arts
Originally posted by A.R.K.
What claims are those Don? Is it the soke thing that has so plauged Robert? ... I hope Robert's alleged phone call isn't the tid bit your hanging your hat on Don
and
You just won't let this go, will you? I'm constantly reminded of the Carly Simon song that has as its refrain "you probably think this (post) is about you, don't you, don't you?"
Every chance you get, you remind everyone about the previous thread war between the two of you. For somone who says he is continuing to offer a hand of peace, your above statements sure sound bitter, and are fairly dripping with sarcasm. I thought you said you were only going to retaliate if Robert said something first - or are you now including preemptive strikes in your verbal repertoire?
Get over it. My patience and tolerance for this is wearing thin... I have been trying to give you the benefit of the doubt - I thought I made that clear in the chatroom the other day... But my desire to continue being as neutral as I can be when you behave in this fashion makes me really wonder how true your alleged peace-offering statements have been. Seems you are, with the above comments, trying to stir the pot once again.
Perhaps you haven't defended him, but you certainly did name drop quite a bit when your rank issues first came into question. It was "Pappasan" this, and "Pappasan" that... And that was only a short time ago.
So which is it? Do you still hold his recognition of you as proof positive of your acceptance and recognition by "masters," or does this make a dent in your argument about the worthwhile nature of recognition from outside one's own system? It makes a nasty argument against it, I think...
Can we let this die soon? I am teally geting tired of the whole issue...
I'd say "Gambarimasu," but the last thing I want is for this issue about Stern's illegitimacy (proven, I think, beyond a shadow of a doubt regardless of claims of medical origins for his misbehavior) and David's rank and lineage mistakes and misunderstandings, to "perservere." I'd like the whole issue to die a rather abrupt and sudden death...
:asian:
A
A.R.K.
Guest
Yiliquan 1,
I appreciate your criticism...and you are correct. Sometimes I react to what others write with more emotion than is needed. My apologies to you and the other posters here in this regard. However, I think perhaps Mr. Roley also needs the same lecture don't you think? After all he does seem quite intent to continue to falsely cast shadows with statements that simply aren't true. And he doesn't seem to be able to admit to his mistakes.
It would seem if I accept criticism and make the appropriate correction I get attacked just as readily as if I stubbornly refused to change. It gets a little tiresome as does vulgar email. Perhaps it will cease. We shall see...
More on topic, I again state that individuals and systems should not be viewed by any deeds an organization may commit. I believe my example of the Kukkiwon and a TKD practitioner are valid ones. Enough said.
Again thank you.
:asian:
I appreciate your criticism...and you are correct. Sometimes I react to what others write with more emotion than is needed. My apologies to you and the other posters here in this regard. However, I think perhaps Mr. Roley also needs the same lecture don't you think? After all he does seem quite intent to continue to falsely cast shadows with statements that simply aren't true. And he doesn't seem to be able to admit to his mistakes.
It would seem if I accept criticism and make the appropriate correction I get attacked just as readily as if I stubbornly refused to change. It gets a little tiresome as does vulgar email. Perhaps it will cease. We shall see...
More on topic, I again state that individuals and systems should not be viewed by any deeds an organization may commit. I believe my example of the Kukkiwon and a TKD practitioner are valid ones. Enough said.
Again thank you.
:asian:
R
RyuShiKan
Guest
Originally posted by A.R.K.
What claims are those Don? Is it the soke thing that has so plauged Robert? That is not a claim, that is a simple language mistake. And one cleared up quite some time ago. My rank? Where has that been shot down Don? I mean specifically cut n paste the shot. I hope Robert's alleged phone call isn't the tid bit your hanging your hat on Don
As I recall you put up quite a few posts regarding how "legit" that Soke title was and how it was recognised by your peers............like Stern for example
I can only contact Don, DAC and a few others via PM.
As per the "hate mail"..............sorry sport, it was you then sent it to me practically begging me to stop posting about you on this forum and asking me to be "friends" and when I refused you got hostile.
R
RyuShiKan
Guest
He has his panties in a wad because I "WON'T" accept his offer of friendship..........and quite frankly I don't see why I should since he has called me an idiot at least once in public.
I don't make friends with people I can't trust.
Schultz ARK has has never given me one reason to trust him so far. He has balked, hmmmm and haaaawed, side stepped, whined, & pouted when asked questions on his training.
He has repeatedly said what a great guy Stren is and how he was soooooooooooo respected in the MA and how his accomplishments were beyond reproach...........and as Paul Harvey says......."and now you know the rest of the story"
Since Schultz hitched his wagon to Stern's star he will have to have to deal with the backlash that comes with it.
A
A.R.K.
Guest
You won't accept my offer of peace because you are stubborn Robert. You whine about being called an idiot, yet have done far worse towards me.
I have never 'hitched' my wagon to anyone's star. I have presented the information that I have seen personally. Form your own opinion. Time to start acting like an adult Robert. Time to stop rehashing old things and spreading inuendos. My training is sound and has been shared with those that conduct themselves in a mature manner. Ask Yiliquan 1. I did have some respect for you until you began emailing me with profanity. I don't mind profanity, I work in a jail. But it pretty much opened my eyes to what you are really like.
Yiliquan 1 has some good advice...
You seem to be doing your share of keeping old issues alive. I'm not looking to be buddies. But I think its time for our bickering to end.
Any chance of you and Don heeding Yiliquan's words? It would seem that only a joint effort to 'let it die' will work. And not just here, but in future threads as well.
I have never 'hitched' my wagon to anyone's star. I have presented the information that I have seen personally. Form your own opinion. Time to start acting like an adult Robert. Time to stop rehashing old things and spreading inuendos. My training is sound and has been shared with those that conduct themselves in a mature manner. Ask Yiliquan 1. I did have some respect for you until you began emailing me with profanity. I don't mind profanity, I work in a jail. But it pretty much opened my eyes to what you are really like.
Yiliquan 1 has some good advice...
You seem to be doing your share of keeping old issues alive. I'm not looking to be buddies. But I think its time for our bickering to end.
Any chance of you and Don heeding Yiliquan's words? It would seem that only a joint effort to 'let it die' will work. And not just here, but in future threads as well.
OP
OP
MartialArtist
Guest
Originally posted by A.R.K.
Chufeng and Disco, many thanks for your posts.
I think Don's intent is two fold. First this bit of information, which I've known about for a month or so, diverts from him having to answer some of my questions in which he would lose a bit of face. It is a common debators tactic. Second, it is yet another 'shadow' he wishes to cast on me in the pursuit of his agenda
Any negative light cast by KYHA affects me in the same way as the Kukkiwon and all of their dirty laundry affects a TKD practitioner i.e. it doesn't.
Yiliquan 1's statement is a valid one...
Very good advice. I've been researching this before anyone else here albiet after the fact. But better late than never. Don, you want me desperately to 'disavow' things so that things 'clear up' around here. I will not disavow anything because there is no reason to. You lying through your teeth and playing at debator's tactics such as 'handwaving', 'straw man' and evasion have not proven anything.
You state...
What claims are those Don? Is it the soke thing that has so plauged Robert? That is not a claim, that is a simple language mistake. And one cleared up quite some time ago. My rank? Where has that been shot down Don? I mean specifically cut n paste the shot. I hope Robert's alleged phone call isn't the tid bit your hanging your hat on Don
And you still have yet to answer my question about the Pangainoon offshoot comment. You said you would be convinced if I could show you the comment as stated on this board. I showed you and asked if, being true to your own words, you were convinced. I've asked 3 or 4 times now in as many threads. What is the answer Don? Why do you continually evade this question. And why can't you be honest in your comments? Why all the negative inflections in your comments? Why make deceitful comments such as the one above?
Robert, welcome back. I knew you weren't really going to leave. But a bit dishonest isn't it, saying you were only back to use the PM function and here you are posting :shrug: And thank you for not sending me more obscene email. And you've managed to cut down on the hate email to one a day. Perhaps your improving?
Back to the topic. Don states I'm defending Mr. Stern. Well, he's again trying to state something as fact that hasn't happened. What I have done is objectively post what I have seen and researched thus far. I have seen those against him lie or distort the truth to further their position. If their position is as solid as many claim, why not have the integrity to sign their emails? Why lie when asked who sent the email? Why lie about his rank status? Was he convicted of a crime? Yes he was...a second degree misd which is the same level as jay walking or catching a fish 1 inch under the limit. A second degree misd just doesn't impress me because who here hasn't done something in their lifetime that they couldn't be arrested for?
I'm a veteran, and a decorated one. [Don feel free to research it]. If the entire account is accurate, no I'm not overly thrilled. But I'm old enough to know there is a bit more to the whole story than just what is in some internet articles. Again, I will bide my time. And again, either way my credentials were set already and KYHA has merely been an avenue to renew my links with Middle Eastern MA's. It doesn't reflect on my system or abilities.
Cheers
:asian:
No organization is perfect, but unlike Kukkiwon and many other legit organizations, the KHYA is a fraud, organized and founded by a fraud, that practices fraud, etc.
OP
OP
MartialArtist
Guest
Was Kukkiwon founded by frauds with the intention of capitalism and false allegations?
- Status
