Ko Sutemi Seiei Kan

[twendkata71]

Hello,back to you. I am not knocking the way the Soke madden runs his class. I have always enjoyed his classes. I personally focus a lot on kata when I teach. But, I also work on kumite. Soke knows his kata,just didn't focus on kata as much and rarely corrected us on our kata. I am glad to hear that you started a class in Obetz. I work in the Obetz area. Where is your class?
As far as some of the other posts go. I remember the story of the old Ko Sutemi dojo patches. I had one at one time from when I started in 1981, then they changed. They have changed several times over the years. I have almost every one except the new one.
Soke did tell us years ago to not wear our patch to other organizations tournements. Because our people usually win more than anyone else,a lot of the other organizations would judge against us if we were wearing our association patch. Most of us when we were involved with the USAKF would just wear that patch or nothing on our gi. I thought of making a Seiei kan patch with the Japanese kanji characters to wear. Many karate instructors can't read Japanese. Also on a side note,back in the 70's when ko sutemi people wore the "rogue patch"(Ko sutemi dojo), they also wore black karate gi. which at that time made our people look like the kenpo people. Times change. I personally hate the politcal stuff that goes on at tournaments. I have always judged fairly.

 

[shiro]

I read here that Mr. Madden did not teach Jujutsu until after the first UFC this is not true the first UFC was in 1993 Madden started his Jujutsu program in 1991.
I thought i would clear that up
thank you

 

[twendkata71]

That is true. Soke Madden did not get the Jujitsu program up an running until 1991. He had talked about it for years. He was so involved with the USAKF karate team program that he did not have the time. He was also on the WUKO/WKF technical commitee,so his time was extremely occupied. When the USAKF lost its NGB status, Soke Madden resigned as the Head of the Coaching staff for the US team. There was a lot of political struggles going on just before Mr. Thuiry split away and started the USANKF and got the support to take the NGB status away from the USAKF.
Now onto the subject of Seiei kan being a combination of several styles of karate. We have caught a lot of flak over the years for borrowing kata from different styles. One,With Soke Madden being involved with the USAKF/WUKO programs, Members were incouraged to learn the Wuko/WKf kata for international competition. Plus our organization has martial artists from many different styles. The AKJU is a multi style organization. Soke Madden has always believed that all martial arts have value. This is nothing new. Karate masters over the ages have done this. Funakoshi did this when he studied two different styles before starting the Shotokan. Mabuni collected kata from several different places,before calling his style Shito ryu. Ohtsuka was a Jujitsu man and picked up karate and added it to his curriculum before calling his style Wado ryu. 80 years ago karate was karate. It wasn't until the Japanese commercialized karate and added thier own spin on it did the Idea of only studying one style come about.
Soke Madden has studied martial arts for 60 years,if you look at most of the Japanese and Okinawan masters, many of them have split off and started their own style or system after 20 or 30 years of study with their parent style. But, when a westerner does it,it is supposed to be bad or not as valid. I don't buy it.
Now there are many Black belts our there that claim to start their own system,style and take on high dan ranks,through one way or another that do not have much substance, but this is not the case with Seiei kan. We have a firm foundation of traditional karate.

 

[shiro]

The only thing that has ever bothered me is Who was Mr. Madddens Sensei in the art of Jujutsu and what style was it? Because as you know we all have talked to someone whos says they had studied Karate Kung Fu or Jujutsu But never say what Ryu ha.

Good day

 

[twendkata71]

Oringinally Soke Madden studied Jujitsu from his father when he was young. His father was in the merchant marines before WWII. I am not sure what the ryuha was originally. Over the years he trained with several other masters. He has been to Japan many many times for training in the 50's,60's and early 70's. You would actually have to ask him. I know our karate style comes from Koei kan karate do. I have seen most of his certificates in his office. Many of them are from Japan. I do know that he was affiliated with the IJJF for a while. But, I am not sure about now. All I do know is that I have had him demonstrate Jujitsu waza on me and they were very effective.

The only thing that has ever bothered me is Who was Mr. Madddens Sensei in the art of Jujutsu and what style was it? Because as you know we all have talked to someone whos says they had studied Karate Kung Fu or Jujutsu But never say what Ryu ha.

Good day

 

[shiro]

I thought he had studied judo under his father.
When the seiei jujitsu(Jujutsu) was started i never heard anyone say where the Jujutsu was comming from. Mr. Madden did talk alot about Phil Porter but i don't remember him comming over to the School.
I think it is nice to know where your art came from and who.

good day

 

[twendkata71]

Master Porter is the one that promoted Soke Madden to 6th dan in Judo. If memory serves me right. We were sort of affiliated with the USJA for a while. I think some of our people are still affiliated the the USJA. Master Porter is no longer with the USJA. Soke Madden told me that his father taught him judo when he was young. It may have been a combination of the two. Shihan Heather Madden was the one that went a bit further and trained to black belt in Jujitsu,Judo,karate and Aikido. Again. If you would like to know what ryuha Soke Madden developed our Jujitsu from,you would have to ask him personally. Soke Madden has been exposed to so many martial arts over the years. Always working to develop our people to their highest potential.

 

[twendkata71]

Correction. Soke Madden told me that his father taught him Jujitsu. He did not mention Judo. Perhaps his father taught him a combination of the two.

 

[twendkata71]

Frankly, I am at the point now,after 25 years of being in the martial arts and being involved with the Ko Sutemi Seiei kan. That I really do not care where our martial arts come from (Jujitsu,Kung fu,karate,etc.) if it is effective and works,then it is valid. I have trained in other styles of karate(matsubayashi shorin ryu,Shotokan,Goju ryu,kempo, and shito ryu) I always came back to the Seiei kan because I could learn all of the same things from our people. We have so many people from different styles that I can learn from all of them. And yes I do know the history of our karate,and the Kung fu that is now taught within the organization. As a amatuer martial arts historian,I have done the research and I do like learning the history of different styles,kata,etc.
All that really matters in a martial art is that it works for you. Now if you are looking for acceptance from some ultra traditional organization or the Japanese,then where your style comes from or what style you study may be important. Whether or not your style is legit or not will come out when you are out on the deck demonstrating. A martial art is only as effective as the person who is performing it and the amount of time that person puts into their training.

 

[shiro]

Case in point Seiei Shaolin do instructor Mr. Day says he founded the system of Silent Dragon Martial Arts (False) I have talked to him about this and he asured me that the name was no longer in use. But guess what it is still on the web page as if it is some old form of Kung fu. It is real sad when someone makes up stuff to make them selfs look good I have tried again to contact some one from Seiei or silent Dragon but no one has contacted me back We are suppose to be Martial Artist with honor but by the way some people act you would not know it.
Sorry if this sounds hard but it has upset me some to see some people take advantage of others like that then lie when asked about it.

Back to the point I wish Mr. Madden would list Ryu Ha His Jujutsu comes from just so people have some idea of the history of the art.

 

[twendkata71]

I was under the impression that Master Day originally studied his form of kung fu under Grand master The`. Who calls his art Shoalin Do. I am not sure if he is still in Kentucky. Master The` was friends with Soke Madden in the 70,s. If memory serves me right. I am not sure when or why Mr. Day split ties with Master The`. I am involved with the Kung fu side of Seiei kan. I have not had the time in the last few years to go to camp and study it. I am mainly just a karate,kobudo and Jujitsu person. Even though I have not had that much time to study Jujitsu lately. I do see your point.

 

[shiro]

Back in the early to mid ninties we had Mr. Day come and teach us more Shaolin Kung fu(He was my instructors instructor) so anyway we trained with him and made him a nice satin jacket that had a dragon on the back and said Shaolin Kung fu on the back and the name of our School which is called Silent Dragon has been since 1983. It was decided that Mr. Day would use the School name and we would the main school when Mr. Day would move to Flordia He had some cert. made up with our schools name on it. He move and we never heard of him again. A couple of years ago i came across a web page where Mr. Day is aid to be teaching this form of Silent Dragon Style I got his email and he told me that they no longer use our schools name(did not explain why he ever did) and he said that him and my instructor just grew stoped talking(my insrtuctor denies). And there acouple of days ago i see they (Seiei Shaolin do) are still useing it.
I am very dissopointed in Mr. Day (not his students they did not know) I thought he was a man of honor i guess not.
I have tried to get ahold of him again but no one has returned my email.
If anyone questions what i am saying i can show my shodan cert that is dated before any of they Seiei people where around.

Mr. Day did say he trained under Mr. The who is still in Kentuckey( He says I wonder now lie about this maybe lie about that)
Good day

 

[twendkata71]

That doesn't sound good. I have meet a few of Mr. Day's students and they seem to be quite good. I personally do not know him.
Perhaps you should seek out Master The` or one of his senior instructors. Like I said, I am mostly a karate person. I know the lineage of my style. Sadly, even though an instructor might be very good. They will embelish about their training past or the history of their style to make it sound more authentic.

 

[shiro]

I have moved away from tha style when I wanted to start martial arts the art that i wanted to study i could not get to a school at the time so i started in Shaolin Kung fu then Shotokan Karate so I knew the Mr. Maddens org. very well I have never broken off from them but i have not ben active for a while with them.
It sounds like you have a good grasp on the arts you study and try to follow some code. good for you.
Good day

 

[TheHeathen]

Incidently.. Something that may interest you, TW.. we are getting ready to go BACK to the kata. Sensei Heather has decided that tournament is one thing, and teaching is something else. She wants everyone to know the traditional way to perform all seven of the basics and I believe there are three others.. for a total of 10. Anyone interested will learn the original way to do the kata, from her, and she is currently undergoing tutelage from Soke himself. Once she teaches you the original way, you can work on it, and eventually she will watch to make sure you have it. That way we don't lose that tradition should Soke decide he is stepping down and retiring. Just a thought.. if you are interested, might want to stop in to class a couple times and see what you can see.

 

[shiro]

You say to keep the tradition do you know what Ryu Ha our Seiei Jujutsu comes Mr. Madden has never mention it at the times i was around. Not that i am trying to say anything i am just wondering. I know sometimes people on this board try to twist what others are saying.
Good Day

 

[twendkata71]

Now does that mean that she will be teaching the original versions of the fukyugata,pinan kata,and naihanchi ichi. If so I know those kata the way that Soke taught me. I study kata inside and out and reverse engineer the kata to see what the bunkai of the kata are. I will make it a priority to get down to the dojo and check out what Shihan Heather Madden is teaching. I like the idea of going back to the traditional method. Soke Madden also taught me a version of Bassai dai that I do not see anywere else.
By the way, I don't see Soke Madden retiring. But, he is in his 70,s now. And all of that traveling and teaching worldwide has to catch up with you sometime. Hanshi Annarino and Hanshi Summers are about the same age. They do not seem to be slowing down either.

 

[twendkata71]

Also, there were orignally three of the naihanchi on Okinawa. I teach all three of those kata. In Seiei kan we mainly teach the one Naihanchi. I have studied the Shorin ryu,shotokan, shitoryu and seieikan versions of the Pinan/Heian kata. The Shorin ryu version is the one that is the most different. As far as advanced kata goes. There are so many different variations in kata that it is hard to keep up. The WKF every so often changed the accepted versions of kata,depending on who is the head of the technical committee. I have seen Seipai change several times. Back in the early ninties it was the Hayashi ha shito ryu version that was mostly used in international competition. Now it is the Goju ryu version. Same thing with Bassai dai. Before is was the Shotokan version, now it is the Shito ryu version. The history of kata gets confusing,because many of the kata are so old that no one knows who created it or when. Some of the original versions of the kata came from China. Some where created on Okinawa and many today were modified when they were brought to Japan by the Okinawan that taught them, Like Funakoshi. He changed all of the kata he taught for the Japanese.
Anyway from what I remember that Soke Madden taught me our kata lineage came from the original Koei kan curriculum,of which our style comes from.
Now, Since Soke Madden split from the Koei kan a long time ago I am not sure what changes in the Koei kan curriculum were made after.
Koei kan does not teach the fukyugataI &II. I think that Soke added them for the purpose of making it easier for people to learn.
The Koei kan curriculum is :
Pinan I-V, Naihanchi I-III,chinto,passai dai and sho,kushanku dai & sho,shihokushanku, chibanna kushanku, gojushiho, sanchin,seisan,sanseiru,seipai,suparinpei and two chinese kata
(jaken ichiro,and renchiken ichiro.) which I have never seen.
Other kata were added to our Seiei kan curriculum because we have so many different stylist that have joined the organization over the years. Soke Madden has not restricted what kata we teach for belt tests. He did say that the basic kata he wanted taught the same. So, All of the Pinan kata need to be taught the same way. I am not sure if the people from other styles of karate that are part of the organization actually test at our belt tests. I have seen some of our Shotokan members at our tests. But, they perform the Heian versions of the kata. I have not seen any of our Kenpo members at our belt tests. So, I am assuming that members from others styles mainly do their own testing. That is unless they want to be ranked in Seiei kan, then I think that they have to test with Soke Madden.

 

[twendkata71]

So, I have not heard any more from Mr. Williams since I post the history of the Seiei kan system. I see where Mr. Williams is a member of the Motobu ha Shito ryu group. I had a lot of respect for Master Kuniba. His teacher Master Kokuba broke ties with Mabuni Kenwa (founder of Shito ryu) and basically started his own version of Shito ryu. How is that different from Seiei kan's founder Don Madden breaking away from Onishi Eizo(Koei kan founder), and starting his own system. It didn't start out that way. Soke Madden started out originally just calling it Ko Sutemi dojo karate. The Seiei kan name came about to distinguish our curriculum from other karate styles and systems. Also, Soke Madden did not ask others to promote him to 9th and eventually 10th dan. The ceremonial promotion by the high dan members of the Ko Sutemi Seiei kan was a recognition ceremony. He also never asks anyone to call him Soke. He actually would rather you call him by his name. But, out of respect we call him either Soke or sensei. He was recognized by the martial arts community for over 50 years of dedicated service,training and contributions to the martial arts on a global scale. The Nippon Butokukai does the same thing in Japan. It is nothing new. But, when American organizations do this for Americans that have devoted their entire life to the development and promotion of martial arts. They are somehow not as legit.
This sounds like a form of racism of sorts. Does it not?
A few startling things that have happened in Traditional karate in Okinawa and Japan.
Kyan Chotoku promoted Shimabuku Eizo to 10th dan when he was only 35 years old. This is very young. (if that is done here in the US it is considered sacrelege in the karate community.).
Toyama Kanken promoted several promonent Japanese masters to 10 th dan and they were not even students of his.
Funakoshi Gichin changed all of the traditional kata that he taught when he went to Japan to promote karate do. Ohtsuka of Wado ryu started his own style after only a few years of training with Funakoshi. Oyama did the same thing with Kyokushinkai. There are so many teachers in Japan that have broken away from their sensei and started their own styles. But, I don't hear too many people in the traditional community complaining about them. And yes there have been Japanese masters that promoted themselves to 9th and 10th dans. Many have had the senior members of their orgainzation do it for them. But, if an non Japanese or Okinawan does it,it is bad, or that person is not deserving of it.
So, yes Ko Sutemi Seiei kan is just as legitamate as other styles,even though it was not founded in Japan or Okinawa.

 

[twendkata71]

I must retract what I stated about Master Kobuba. He was not a student of Mabuni. He was a student of Motobu. Perhaps that name was later added because Master Kuniba studied Shito ryu. I do apologize. I was off on my research. I would not want to post misleading or false information. I had misread the information.

So, I have not heard any more from Mr. Williams since I post the history of the Seiei kan system. I see where Mr. Williams is a member of the Motobu ha Shito ryu group. I had a lot of respect for Master Kuniba. His teacher Master Kokuba broke ties with Mabuni Kenwa (founder of Shito ryu) and basically started his own version of Shito ryu. How is that different from Seiei kan's founder Don Madden breaking away from Onishi Eizo(Koei kan founder), and starting his own system. It didn't start out that way. Soke Madden started out originally just calling it Ko Sutemi dojo karate. The Seiei kan name came about to distinguish our curriculum from other karate styles and systems. Also, Soke Madden did not ask others to promote him to 9th and eventually 10th dan. The ceremonial promotion by the high dan members of the Ko Sutemi Seiei kan was a recognition ceremony. He also never asks anyone to call him Soke. He actually would rather you call him by his name. But, out of respect we call him either Soke or sensei. He was recognized by the martial arts community for over 50 years of dedicated service,training and contributions to the martial arts on a global scale. The Nippon Butokukai does the same thing in Japan. It is nothing new. But, when American organizations do this for Americans that have devoted their entire life to the development and promotion of martial arts. They are somehow not as legit.
This sounds like a form of racism of sorts. Does it not?
A few startling things that have happened in Traditional karate in Okinawa and Japan.
Kyan Chotoku promoted Shimabuku Eizo to 10th dan when he was only 35 years old. This is very young. (if that is done here in the US it is considered sacrelege in the karate community.).
Toyama Kanken promoted several promonent Japanese masters to 10 th dan and they were not even students of his.
Funakoshi Gichin changed all of the traditional kata that he taught when he went to Japan to promote karate do. Ohtsuka of Wado ryu started his own style after only a few years of training with Funakoshi. Oyama did the same thing with Kyokushinkai. There are so many teachers in Japan that have broken away from their sensei and started their own styles. But, I don't hear too many people in the traditional community complaining about them. And yes there have been Japanese masters that promoted themselves to 9th and 10th dans. Many have had the senior members of their orgainzation do it for them. But, if an non Japanese or Okinawan does it,it is bad, or that person is not deserving of it.
So, yes Ko Sutemi Seiei kan is just as legitamate as other styles,even though it was not founded in Japan or Okinawa.