Ko Dang ki-ops

[terryl965]

Where are the ki-ops in the poomsae Ko Dang, My son is learning it but both instructors tell me something different and the ones on you tube does not have them in it. To be honest I have not doen this form in over ten years and I just do not remember.
Thanks

 

[Kacey]

Where are the ki-ops in the poomsae Ko Dang, My son is learning it but both instructors tell me something different and the ones on you tube does not have them in it. To be honest I have not doen this form in over ten years and I just do not remember.
Thanks

We only kihap at the end of tuls, with the name of the tul. Other than that, I can't really help you, except to relate this story:

Gen. Choi was teaching an International Instructor's course which several people I know attended (it was before I started). Someone asked him where the kihaps went in one of the tuls, and Gen. Choi's response was "You have book?" (that is, the Encyclopedia of Taekwon-do that he wrote).

Answer: "Yes."

Gen. Choi: "Book say where kihap?"

Answer: "No, sir, that's why I'm asking."

Gen. Choi: "Not in book, don't do... not important."

And that was that - no more kihaps in the middle of tuls.

 

[Windsinger]

Gen. Choi: "Not in book, don't do... not important."

I wish I'd stayed in TKD when I first got involved back in the early 90's. I think Gen. Choi would have been a fascinating man to meet.

 

[Kacey]

I wish I'd stayed in TKD when I first got involved back in the early 90's. I think Gen. Choi would have been a fascinating man to meet.

He was... although I mostly "met" him at seminars with a couple of hundred other students.

 

[rmclain]

We only kihap at the end of tuls, with the name of the tul. Other than that, I can't really help you, except to relate this story:

Gen. Choi was teaching an International Instructor's course which several people I know attended (it was before I started). Someone asked him where the kihaps went in one of the tuls, and Gen. Choi's response was "You have book?" (that is, the Encyclopedia of Taekwon-do that he wrote).

Answer: "Yes."

Gen. Choi: "Book say where kihap?"

Answer: "No, sir, that's why I'm asking."

Gen. Choi: "Not in book, don't do... not important."

And that was that - no more kihaps in the middle of tuls.

I guess he "forgot?"

R. McLain

 

[terryl965]

Thanks for all the help.

 

[Kacey]

I guess he "forgot?"

R. McLain

"Forgot" what? I'm afraid I don't understand your comment. From before I started TKD (1987) there haven't been kihaps in the middle of patterns, although I have seniors who remember when they used to be done - usually upon reading the top of the pattern diagram, as far from the starting point as you got during the pattern - but it's been a long time since the ITF has done patterns with kihaps anywhere but at the end, when the performer(s) say the name of the pattern.

 

[rmclain]

"Forgot" what? I'm afraid I don't understand your comment. From before I started TKD (1987) there haven't been kihaps in the middle of patterns, although I have seniors who remember when they used to be done - usually upon reading the top of the pattern diagram, as far from the starting point as you got during the pattern - but it's been a long time since the ITF has done patterns with kihaps anywhere but at the end, when the performer(s) say the name of the pattern.

From the post dealing with a seminar with Choi Hong Hi, Kacey mentioned someone that asked Choi Hong Hi where the kihops were in 1 form. This should have been a simple answer, especially from the founder of the forms (i.e. "the kihops are at movement X and movement x," or "there are no kihops in that form."). An evasive answer where someone refers to a book (his book), instead of giving a direct answer, is usually an indicator that they don't know because they don't practice anymore. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt with, "I guess he "forgot"." Sometimes older people have trouble with memory.

R. McLain

 

[Kacey]

From the post dealing with a seminar with Choi Hong Hi, Kacey mentioned someone that asked Choi Hong Hi where the kihops were in 1 form. This should have been a simple answer, especially from the founder of the forms (i.e. "the kihops are at movement X and movement x," or "there are no kihops in that form."). An evasive answer where someone refers to a book (his book), instead of giving a direct answer, is usually an indicator that they don't know because they don't practice anymore. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt with, "I guess he "forgot"." Sometimes older people have trouble with memory.

R. McLain

That's one interpretation - but the way it was explained to me, it just wasn't important - that's why it wasn't in the book he wrote, which is the one being referred to. He left them out on purpose, because they weren't important. What was important to him was finding out if the person had a copy of the Encyclopedia of Taekwon-Do, and if he had read it or not. Since this was some 20 years before his death at the age of 83 (from stomach cancer, with his full faculties), I doubt it was a memory issue.

 

[rmclain]

That's one interpretation - but the way it was explained to me, it just wasn't important - that's why it wasn't in the book he wrote, which is the one being referred to. He left them out on purpose, because they weren't important. What was important to him was finding out if the person had a copy of the Encyclopedia of Taekwon-Do, and if he had read it or not. Since this was some 20 years before his death at the age of 83 (from stomach cancer, with his full faculties), I doubt it was a memory issue.

I apologize. I took the situation out of context.

R. McLain

 

[StuartA]

Actually, Ki-haps (not ki-ops) were originally infused with the Ch'ang Hon patterns. They were removed very early on and speculation and discussion as to why this was can be found in a certain book I know of

Most Ch'ang Hon/ITF schools no longer use them.. though ITF-V are intent on bringing them back apparently!!!

So, to recap: They were there originally (Though I am still researching the BB patterns in this area.. so will get back to you about Kodang).. they were removed, by the General, on purpose...

Stuart

 

[fireman00]

from " The (Shamelessly) Unofficial Taekwondo Resource" at http://paperwindow.com/tkd/

DirectionMovementStanceAction
N--ReadyOpen hands crossed at groin level.
NE With Rf, step backward intoHorse (chest-NE) L middle section inward palm block, followed rapidly by: R middle punch
N Rf backward L backTwin forearm guarding block
N--L backScissor Block (L middle block, R low block)
NW Slide Lf intoHorse (chest-NW)R middle section inward palm block, followed rapidly by: L middle punch
N Lf backward R backTwin forearm guarding blocks
N--R backScissor block (R middle block, L low block)SCW (180*)--R reverse side kick (toward S)NDrop RfL backL middle knifehand block (R fist chambered at R hip)SCCW (180*)--L reverse side kick (toward S)
N Drop LfR back R middle knifehand block (L fist chambered at L hip)
N Backward L back L downward vertical elbow strikeNB ackward R back R downward vertical elbow strike
N ForwardL front Scissor palm pressing blocks
(L upward, R-downward) <Slowly & Exhaling>
N ForwardF front Scissor palm pressing blocks (R upward, L downward) <Slowly & Exhaling>
N BackwardL back L low forearm block
N Forward R back R low forearm block
N ForwardL cat L upward palm pressing block
N Forward R ca tR upward palm pressing block
N Rf backward into L cat L front kick (maintain hand positions)
N Lf forward, STOMP down into L front Twin inward knifehand strikes (to opponent's throat), Rapidly followed by: L knifehand rising block
N Shift LfL back L low knifehand block
N Shift LfL front R low reverse punch (eyes should also look downward) <Yell!>
N Step Lf behind Rf, shifting weight onto Lf, then step Rf backward, SLIDING, into:L backMiddle knifehand guarding blocks
N JUMP off both legs, drawing knees high in the air, then land in L back Middle knifehand guarding blocks
N JUMP forward, pivoting CCW 180* to land in Rf x'd over LfR backfist strike (L fist guarding at R elbow)
S Step out with Lf to face SL front L high outward forearm block (ulna side)
N Pull Lf -> Rf, then step out toward N with RfR frontR high outward forearm block (ulna side)
N Lf forwardL back R uppercut punch (as you draw the L-fist to the R-shoulder)
E Keeping Lf fixed and arms crossed in front of chest, lift Rf to do:--R inward foot sweep (toward E) (i.e. a 'hooking' kick)
E Drop RfR backR outward knifehand strike
W Rf -> Lf Feet together Turn head toward W
W----L inward foot sweep (toward W) (i.e. a 'hooking' kick)
W Drop LfL back L outward knifehand strike
E Lf -> Rf, then step out with the Rf toward E intoR back Middle knifehand guarding blocks
W Rf -> Lf, then step out with the Lf toward W, intoL backMiddle knifehand guarding blocks <Yell!>
N Lf -> Rf Ready
Ready

 

[Tryak]

It would appear that everywhere someone says something different. Personally in my school we, as Kacey said, do not ki-hap in the middle of tuls.

http://www.itatkd.com/pattern_kodang.html says the 1st and Last (39th) movement call for a yell.

http://www.itf-information.com/patterns28.htm is the reproduction from the TKD encyclopedia which has no ki-haps marked in it.

Hope this helps.

 

[terryl965]

It would appear that everywhere someone says something different. Personally in my school we, as Kacey said, do not ki-hap in the middle of tuls.

http://www.itatkd.com/pattern_kodang.html says the 1st and Last (39th) movement call for a yell.

http://www.itf-information.com/patterns28.htm is the reproduction from the TKD encyclopedia which has no ki-haps marked in it.

Hope this helps.

I think we will just keep to the one at the end, thanks everyone.

 

[StuartA]

Actually, Ki-haps (not ki-ops) were originally infused with the Ch'ang Hon patterns. They were removed very early on and speculation and discussion as to why this was can be found in a certain book I know of

Most Ch'ang Hon/ITF schools no longer use them.. though ITF-V are intent on bringing them back apparently!!!

So, to recap: They were there originally (Though I am still researching the BB patterns in this area.. so will get back to you about Kodang).. they were removed, by the General, on purpose...

Stuart

Sorry.. that should have been ITF-C adding back in the ki-haps!

Co-incedentially I have just heard they have renamed "Juche" to "Kodang".. now thats gonna make things VERY confusing!!

Stuart

 

[Kacey]

Sorry.. that should have been ITF-C adding back in the ki-haps!

Co-incedentially I have just heard they have renamed "Juche" to "Kodang".. now thats gonna make things VERY confusing!!

Stuart

So... what're they going to do with Ko-Dang? We do both tuls, as Ko-Dang is a historical revenant and important to understanding the history and development of TKD over time, so renaming Juche as Ko-Dang would cause all sorts of problems.

 

[StuartA]

So... what're they going to do with Ko-Dang? We do both tuls, as Ko-Dang is a historical revenant and important to understanding the history and development of TKD over time, so renaming Juche as Ko-Dang would cause all sorts of problems.

Kacey.. I agree with you completely.. I think its ill thought-out and TBH.. idiotic!

If they are going to rename it... they should at least chose something original.. not the name Kodang.. as this shows a vast lack of understanding of both TKD and Korean history.. and even an idiot like myself knows the two are in conflict!

I really dont understand it myself!!

Stuart