Should Juche Be A Pattern?

[MadMartigan]

From that inflammatory title, let's set a couple ground rules. There are other threads discussing the history of the Juche pattern (why it was developed, the politics of it all, etc). My intentions are not to get into any of that.

1st, let's look at the pattern up for discussion:

Now I don't have any special attachment to the original Ko Dang pattern that Juche (or whatever people are calling it now in different organizations) replaced. Ko Dang is (by comparison) a fairly uncomplicated and straightforward form. My question about whether Juche should even be a pattern is based in how I view patterns on a philosophical level.

To me, one of the beautiful things about the TMA in general is how patterns act as an 'equalizer'. While a naturally gifted athlete will surpass others who are less advantaged; in patterns they find themselves equals. The better athlete is often not better at forms (a generalized anecdotal observation over the years). Patterns mastery comes from attention to detail and fine tuning precise movements.

What I see when looking at Juche, is a pattern designed to accomplish the opposite goal. Besides the low practicality of a running, jumping split kick (outside the creative forms circuit); such movement is not realistic for many practitioners.

While challenging, I do not have similar issue with the controlled spinning kicks. These, I believe, emphasize precision and can be developed by most who are willing to invest the effort.

(I also have to admit to being curious what the 'H-E-double-hockey-sticks' that wierd jumping up and down jazz hands shuffle move towards the end is all about).

- Does anyone have reasons that they really appreciate this pattern?
- Outside of athletic performance, what benefits do you find in this pattern (not already canonized in the original 24 forms)?
- Am I the only one of the belief that patterns should focus on technical precision over athletic prowess?

 

[TenHands]

Karate guy here who has never practiced Juche but I do have traditional Taekwondo experience:

A contrast must be made between a TMA made for self-defense and one made for physical conditioning. These two things do go hand in hand, yes, but let's remember that some arts focus on self-protection, favoring high stances and quick techniques (Kyudokan for example), while others focus on self-perfection, teaching low stances and more broad techniques (Shotokan being one of them). In the case of the latter, physical fitness is the ultimate goal, hence why many of the higher forms in Shotokan involve impractical yet demanding techniques (the Unsu jump, for example).

At this point, it should be widely known that Chang-Hon patterns were created directly from Shotokan (if you don't believe me, look at Won-Hyo and then look at Heian Nidan). With that being said, I think that Juche is ITF's Unsu; although containing many practical techniques, it does have extremely absurd and difficult maneuvers that favor the more able-bodied athlete over the average man looking to defend himself.

To answer your questions directly:
-Yes. A test of physical fitness is more than welcome, especially in a style that teaches self-perfection in addition to self-protection.
-I'm seeing plenty of double-blocks at face level. It's always good to teach people to keep their hands up.
-Often times, athletic prowess can aid technical precision.

 

[Earl Weiss]

.......................

What I see when looking at Juche, is a pattern designed to accomplish the opposite goal. Besides the low practicality of a running, jumping split kick (outside the creative forms circuit); such movement is not realistic for many practitioners.

.........................

.............................

- Does anyone have reasons that they really appreciate this pattern?
- Outside of athletic performance, what benefits do you find in this pattern (not already canonized in the original 24 forms)?
- Am I the only one of the belief that patterns should focus on technical precision over athletic prowess?

First let's address the premise Practicality of patterns? Practicality for ??? Sparring, Self Defense??? Something else??? In the Chang Hon system the Cycle of TK-D is
1. Fundamental movements
2. Dallyon = Maintenance of Equipment
conditioning ie. fitness, forging your knuckles all in all keeping things strong
3. Patterns = Platoon Tactics
4. Sparring
5. Self-defence = Actual combat

So, as you can see patterns are but one element and seemingly not having a primary goal of Practicality. So, you either appreciate the "Art" aspect or not since Art is in the eye of the beholder.

Outside of athletic performance performance which I will take to mean challenging physicality it employs techniques / concepts not found in other patterns - (Quickly from memory) Dodging Kick - Jumping away from oncoming attacker. Hooking Kick - Block / Parry with that particular technique (did appear in Ko Dang.) Jumping Spinning hand technique covering distance toward opponent. Parallel Block with Forearm, High Elbow strike, Pick Shape Kick, Arc Hand Attack, Twin Inward Knifehand, Downward Block with Forearm (appeared in Ko dang) Flying 2 direction Kick, 2 Punches while Jumping. Horizontal back fist strike, Inward cross Cut.
Sorry if list is not perfect.

Finally - Athletic prowess vs Technical Precision - The two are not mutually exclusive.

 

[MadMartigan]

Thank you both for the replies so far.

-Yes. A test of physical fitness is more than welcome, especially in a style that teaches self-perfection in addition to self-protection.

So, as you can see patterns are but one element and seemingly not having a primary goal of Practicality. So, you either appreciate the "Art" aspect or not since Art is in the eye of the beholder.

With respect to you GM Weiss; acknowledging that you have far more knowledge and experience in TKD than I.
This, perhaps, is the fundamental difference (why my views appear to differ so greatly from mainstream tkd).

I do appreciate the patterns for the art aspect. You are right. All art is subjective; but I also like how the patterns give us an objective way of measuring a student's attention to technical details.

I have always viewed patterns as the completely level playing field. I don't like 1 of them acting like a gate-keeper. Should someone not be able to advance; even if they can't master a running, jumping 2 direction kick?

After back injuries and as I approach 40 this year; my interest now is in the mastery of fundamentals and knowledge of the art. I'm thinking most masters in their 80s are not demonstrating or practicing this pattern.

To the other point of self-protection vs self-perfection. I agree to a point. I just differ on what self-perfection means in this context. I see self-defense as the highest goal (of any MA) with athletic accomplishments being at a secondary level. I have no problem with acrobatics and fancy kicks... I just disagree that they should be part of the 'official standard' for what constitutes a higher level tkd black belt.

Finally - Athletic prowess vs Technical Precision - The two are not mutually exclusive.

Of course you are correct. My contention was just that (for some students) this is not a choice given to them. When athletic prowess is not an option; patterns (in my little mind) act as the balance. Not everyone can do a jumping 2 direction kick... but everyone (not accounting for certain physical limitations) can do the forms. That is... except for 1 of the forms... Juche.

When I step back and look at the 24(+1) forms in the Chang Hon syllabus; the old saying comes to mind (strictly from a physical composition standpoint):
'One of these things is not like the others. One of these things doesn't belong'.

 

[Earl Weiss]

...........

I have always viewed patterns as the completely level playing field. I don't like 1 of them acting like a gate-keeper. Should someone not be able to advance; even if they can't master a running, jumping 2 direction kick?

......................................

After back injuries and as I approach 40 this year; my interest now is in the mastery of fundamentals and knowledge of the art. I'm thinking most masters in their 80s are not demonstrating or practicing this pattern.

...................................

.. I just disagree that they should be part of the 'official standard' for what constitutes a higher level tkd black belt.
................. Not everyone can do a jumping 2 direction kick... but everyone (not accounting for certain physical limitations) can do the forms. That is... except for 1 of the forms... Juche.

I submit that if any student uses any difficult technique as a gatekeeper the issue is with the instructor not the system. There are various photos of General Choi with a BB born without arms. That did not limit his progress.

Most masters in their 80's? A. By that age we re lucky to be vertical; B. I don't think there are enough active 80+ masters to draw any conclusion; C. I long ago developed "Old Man" versions of various pattern techniques. D At IICs I hve heard technical directors state students should do the closest approximation of a technique they can do well, if the attempt at the actual technique will look a lot worse than the approximation.

Perhaps everyone can't do it. As Senior GM Sereff once said out of many thousands of BBs only a handful could do every technique in the syllabus. You can still teach a technique even if you can't do it. But you need to learn it first.

As far as practicality goes. Few would say a "Reflex Kick " is "Practical" but Anthony Pettis used it successfully off the cage.