Say you hold a women's self defense course and you have a great turn out. The class is just full of women you have never seen before of all shapes and sizes. Perhaps this has occured in your life so it won't be to hard to imagine. Now ask your self what percentage of them would ever reach the level required to make a bottom three knuckle shot work consistantly? Now ask your self is it worth teaching to them at all? Couldn't valuable training time be spent on things that they could really do?
Chronuss
Senior Master
very true...but it's still maintained that striking with the first two knuckles on the fist help maintain propper body alignment, correct? don't think I'd attempt to show the ladies how to punch correctly in that small amount of time...rather focus on natural or impromptu weapons and defenses.
Cruentus
Grandmaster
I agree here.
In fact, in a womens self defense course, I wouldn't really teach punching at all. I would teach strikes that are less damaging to the hand, and easier to use with little training, such as palms strikes or hammer fists.
What people forget is that proper punching takes a certian degree of training to get the body mechanics correct, and to condition yourself so you don't damage your hands. This is beyond the scope of a womans self defense course.
KennethKu
2nd Black Belt
And how does that come by? Improper training, poor conditioning.
Punching is not that complicated. Besides, the knuckles are stronger than just about any part of the physiological structure other than may be the skull and the elbow, that you are likely to strike. It isn't that hard to teach punching with the index and middle knuckles and to align them properly. C'mon, there is no need to complicate things here.
I trained striking using the 3 smaller knuckles (WingChun/Boxing/Jkd punch) on heavy bag (w/pit rocks) and I moved to using the index and middle knuckles (TKD/Karate punch). It is far more efficient to use the 2 larger knuckles. Of course, with proper training and conditioning, they all work just as fine. For a beginner, I would advocate the 2 knuckles punch, cuz you can hit with stronger effect with little conditioning. C'mon, millions of TKD and Karateka cannot all be morons. lol
K
kenpo12
Guest
Look, would anyone here dispute Mike Tyson's level of training or conditioning? I don't think so. He got into a fight with another boxer on street about 12 or so years ago (can't remember the other boxers name) and Iron Mike broke his hand punching this guy in the face. Granted the guy was out for the count and looked like the elephant man afterwords but Tyson was in a cast after that. I'm sure I'll here people here give the excuse that Tyson was used to fighting with gloves on and his hands weren't properly conditioned. I'm not buying that excuse, his hands are more conditioned than 90% of the MA'ists that claim to be conditoned. If his hand couldn't handle it in a real fight, I don't think there are to many people's hands that can.
Personally, I don't care what you do, but I can't believe anyone would be irrisponsible enough to teach others to punch that way.
I have an idea, why don't you go ask your doctor, or even better yet, go find a doctor who is specialized in sports medicine and ask them what they think. I've already talked to doctors on more than one occasion and I know the answer you'll get but why don't you try that.
Personally, I don't care what you do, but I can't believe anyone would be irrisponsible enough to teach others to punch that way.
I have an idea, why don't you go ask your doctor, or even better yet, go find a doctor who is specialized in sports medicine and ask them what they think. I've already talked to doctors on more than one occasion and I know the answer you'll get but why don't you try that.
KennethKu
2nd Black Belt
1. Boxers bind their hands in training. The wrists/hands are not properly conditioned to be strong. This is a known fact.
2. How many of you can punch with the same force Mikey can?
3. If you ask your doctor, he/she would probably tell you that MA is bad for you. And he/she can go on and on about the risk of injury to your body.
The WingChun punch is not as hazzardous as one might presume. I wouldn't dismiss it outright. I trained with it and it works just fine. But I prefer the bigger boulders. lol
2. How many of you can punch with the same force Mikey can?
3. If you ask your doctor, he/she would probably tell you that MA is bad for you. And he/she can go on and on about the risk of injury to your body.
The WingChun punch is not as hazzardous as one might presume. I wouldn't dismiss it outright. I trained with it and it works just fine. But I prefer the bigger boulders. lol
K
kenpo12
Guest
Yes, they tape their hands, but please show me where there is a fact that boxers don't have conditioned hands.
K
kenpo12
Guest
Not what I said. Who says boxers hands aren't conditioned? Please show me something that says someone who conditions their hands on say a makiwara has better conditioned hands than a professional boxer. I'd like to see your facts, I know boxers wear gloves when they fight but I'd like to see something that actually compares the two in a study. If you can't show me that then you're just making this up based on your opinion. I can show facts that hitting with the last three knuckles will break your hand, please show me the facts that they can be conditioned to hit with.
Cruentus
Grandmaster
What proof are you looking for? There are entire systems of martial arts who use the last 3 knuckles for punching; JKD, Wing Chun to name a few. They punch things all the time and they don't break their hands because of body mechanics. Although I prefer hitting with my 1st 2 knuckles, I have broken boards and hit bags and people with my vertical punch last 3 knuckles, without breaking my hand.
Am I superhuman, or just trained? There are no studies to speak of for what your looking for, meaning that there is nothing to prove YOUR claims either. The Boxers fracture is common, but they weren't attempting a vertical punch or straight blast; they were most likely throwing a haymaker. People break their fingers and hands punching all the time, and all 4 knuckles, not just the last 3. Does this mean that punching in general is ineffective, or that it is possible that you can train to punch properly?
Regardless, your the one trying to prove that it is inadvisable not to punch with the last 3 knuckles even with proper training and mechanics. So, the burden of proof is on YOU to prove that even with training you shouldn't punch with the last 3 knuckles. But understand that you will be going against entire systems of martial arts by "proving" such a thing.
If you want to save yourself a headache (because you won't be able to prove squat) I would just settle for a less intrusive commentary like, "If others prefer to hit with the last 3 knuckles, and that is the way they train, then that is fine with me. I, however, do not train that way; I hit with the first 2 knuckles."
PAUL
I can not believe the amount of disagreement going on over such a simple subject.
Truthfully, the best way to punch, is the way you have been trained to do it. Or, if you like, the way you are used to punching.
In the style I train in, we predominately use 1 knuckle. The one over the index finger. The fist is rotated 3/4 of the way, so that this knuckle sits proud, and at the point of contact, the fist is dipped so that the knuckle digs in.
Is my way the best?? It is for me!
Is your way wrong? Hell no! But it won't work for me. Why? Because, that's not how I train.
--Dave
:asian:
Truthfully, the best way to punch, is the way you have been trained to do it. Or, if you like, the way you are used to punching.
In the style I train in, we predominately use 1 knuckle. The one over the index finger. The fist is rotated 3/4 of the way, so that this knuckle sits proud, and at the point of contact, the fist is dipped so that the knuckle digs in.
Is my way the best?? It is for me!
Is your way wrong? Hell no! But it won't work for me. Why? Because, that's not how I train.
--Dave
:asian:
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bob919
Guest
2 kuckles does not have better alignment infact i think it has worse alignment because a 3 knucle fist has the little finger over the radius and the middle finger over the ulna this means less force is lost as they are aligned
as for the statement some have made about it being easier to break the little finger than the index; thats true but your forgetting that the ring knuckle is also punching to you have 3 metacarsels supporting the impact rather than 2
2 knuckcles requires alot of tension in the wrist as the wrist is bent this means it doesn't usually work to well against targets such as the chest when you try to follow through.
but i believe 2 knuckles has the advantage when it comes to face blows because when you strike the face their is a good chance of a one knucle landing id prefer the index knuckle do do tat rather that the pinky knuckle
as for the statement some have made about it being easier to break the little finger than the index; thats true but your forgetting that the ring knuckle is also punching to you have 3 metacarsels supporting the impact rather than 2
2 knuckcles requires alot of tension in the wrist as the wrist is bent this means it doesn't usually work to well against targets such as the chest when you try to follow through.
but i believe 2 knuckles has the advantage when it comes to face blows because when you strike the face their is a good chance of a one knucle landing id prefer the index knuckle do do tat rather that the pinky knuckle
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bob919
Guest
hey was the oppisite i started using boxingstyle punches using the first 2 but i find better alignment with a 3 knucle punch
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bob919
Guest
and BTW
Bruce Lee uses the bottom 3 therefore it must be correct!!!
Bruce Lee uses the bottom 3 therefore it must be correct!!!
Originally posted by bob919
and BTW
Bruce Lee uses the bottom 3 therefore it must be correct!!!
B. Lee used (not 'uses'...he's dead) the bottom three knuckles because he was formally trained in Wing Chun. That system, and other Chinese systems, train their punches that way.
Just punch however is more comfortable to you and train that way. Don't keep trying to use some other punch...you'll very likely just end up learning to punch incorrectly in several different ways.
Cthulhu
B
Black Bear
Guest
I was inclined to say yeah, first two knuckles all the time, but on reflection, I do it the same as PAUL. Which is alright. I tend to agree with most of what that guy says. With a vertical punch, the elbow's down, so the fist seems to naturally cant upward in order to transfer force most effectively. But then, I don't punch like that all that much.
People always can give a reason why their thing makes the most sense. I saw an article by an Isshin-Ryu guy about why vertical punches are best. I guess the guy had a pal with a physiology background and was saying how certain bones and muscles are aligned in a synergistic way that minimizes the risk of sprains or something.
For myself though, I just figure that the index and middle metacarpal are thicker and straighter than the ring and pinky metacarpals, so punch with those and you probably won't break 'em.
People always can give a reason why their thing makes the most sense. I saw an article by an Isshin-Ryu guy about why vertical punches are best. I guess the guy had a pal with a physiology background and was saying how certain bones and muscles are aligned in a synergistic way that minimizes the risk of sprains or something.
For myself though, I just figure that the index and middle metacarpal are thicker and straighter than the ring and pinky metacarpals, so punch with those and you probably won't break 'em.
"Do you really want to take the chance of breaking your hand in a fight for your life?"
That is the question we ask ourselves in TSD. In fact, when I trained in Arnis, one of the techniques we learned was "defang the snake" break the weapon that comes close. If you break your hand, you defang your own snake.
Consequently, we have a theory that helps us "Yin and Yang striking". Hard strikers Yang - fists, points of the elbow, knees, top of the foot and shin, strike soft - Yin - targets or those with no bone directly underneath. Soft strikers Yin - palm heal, ball of the foot, bottom of the foot, and forearm - strike hard or Yang targets.
That is the question we ask ourselves in TSD. In fact, when I trained in Arnis, one of the techniques we learned was "defang the snake" break the weapon that comes close. If you break your hand, you defang your own snake.
Consequently, we have a theory that helps us "Yin and Yang striking". Hard strikers Yang - fists, points of the elbow, knees, top of the foot and shin, strike soft - Yin - targets or those with no bone directly underneath. Soft strikers Yin - palm heal, ball of the foot, bottom of the foot, and forearm - strike hard or Yang targets.
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