knuckles to punch with

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by KennethKu
The reason knuckles are broken is due to poor or bad conditioning.

Or maybe improper alighnement?
Sean

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
Or maybe improper alighnement?
Sean

I'd say improper aliagnment most often. I personally wouldn't punch a horizontal punchwith my last 3 knuckles for risk of my hand bones (in relationship to my wrist and forearms) would not be properly aligned on contact, causing them to break. You need to have proper and safe technique no matter what knuckles you chose to punch with. You won't know this until you hit someone (or a board, brick, heavy bag, etc.) to find out if your technique is safe or not.

Thats why I always say, find a trained professional.

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by PAUL
I'd say improper aliagnment most often. I personally wouldn't punch a horizontal punch with my last 3 knuckles for risk of my hand bones (in relationship to my wrist and forearms) would not be properly aligned on contact, causing them to break. You need to have proper and safe technique no matter what knuckles you chose to punch with. You won't know this until you hit someone (or a board, brick, heavy bag, etc.) to find out if your technique is safe or not.

Thats why I always say, find a trained professional.

 

[kenpo12]

cant beleive this topic is even being debated. Practice with the first two knuckles only. Any other method is a specialization not worth practicing. End of story!!!!

I'm with you on this one. I'm done with this thread, do what you like.

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by kenpo12
I'm with you on this one. I'm done with this thread, do what you like.

Gee thanks.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by KennethKu
The reason knuckles are broken is due to poor or bad conditioning.

Can I also add the lack of a compact weapon? Or that titanium breastplate police use?
Sean

 

[bob919]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
I cant beleive this topic is even being debated. Practice with the first two knuckles only. Any other method is a specialization not worth practicing. End of story!!!! :soapbox:
Sean

yeh i smear maple syrup on my hands to make them tougher; if i do it it must be right

 

[Cthulhu]

A link to a post I made a while back with some info on the 'boxer's fracture':

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=171978#post171978

Cthulhu

 

[Michael Billings]

Sorry, I just couldn't resist.

But seriously folks ... there is more than proper bone alignment in creating a punching surface, and the Wing Chun guys always used the bottom 3, for their famous 1" punch, so the power is there.

We can condition any part of our body to be a weapon (almost), the operant word is "condition", why would you want to have huge conditioned knuckles, but not be able to streighten out your hand, or hold your grandchild's hand as you get older?

Anyhow, back to the "More". Think about not just alignment with the Radius or Ulna, you are lining up Radius with the index/middle finger knuckle punch - and lining up ring/little finger with the ulna in the other punch. So both have a type of alignment and are valid from that perspective.

Now visit the forearm itself, another type of "bracing" can occur as the fist rotates to the 3/4 or horizontal position. There is a collapsing or compression of the radius and ulna as you rotate, and the "bracing" gets structurally stronger as the fist rotates (feel the forearm above the wrist as you rotate the fist.) The weakest part of any punch is the wrist, given that the 7 little bones there, are a "gliding" joint, unique in the body. Pressure out of alignment is more likely to sprain or break there, if you are not aligned properly.

Most of us tape up for bag work, given that in a fight, we are not repeatedly incurring the stress to the bones of the hand. I prefer various heel palm, or chinese wrist breaks (fingertips in - to fingertips out, right before impact, as the weapon strikes the target.) But when punching, I do so with the index/middle knuckles (ram's head punch), but have done it both ways in working with other styles.

What about thumb underneath, as v. thumb bracing the index finger, compressing the hand?

Enough already ... a punch is a punch, is a punch.

-Michael

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
Sorry, I just couldn't resist.

But seriously folks ... there is more than proper bone alignment in creating a punching surface, and the Wing Chun guys always used the bottom 3, for their famous 1" punch, so the power is there...

Enough already ... a punch is a punch, is a punch.

-Michael

well obviously not. The one inch punch is actualy a one inch push. Put a car one inch from another car and no matter how hard you press the eccellerator your not going to crush or damage the front end as much as if you were going 70mph. So, a punch is not a punch because we arent dealing with the same forces.
Sean

 

[Michael Billings]

Feeling is believing ... you don't have to, but in my experience, I have met someone who CAN do it.

But Leung Ting (sp) was here in Austin in the 80's and demonstrated at our studio for the evening news cameras. Big old bruise in the middle of the sternum, I know what you mean by push. But there was a strike there that hurt, and it was a strike. Same muscles used used for the push, but then again, I could be wrong in your eyes.

Good car story, maybe that is how other Wing Chun, Ving Tsun practitioners did it to you?

-Michael

 

[bob919]

its no push
i'm sure some of them are. but done properly it has considerivble power i invite you to come visit me and i'll show you! failing that you could go to a good wingchun teacher or advanced student

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by bob919
its no push
i'm sure some of them are. but done properly it has considerivble power i invite you to come visit me and i'll show you! failing that you could go to a good wingchun teacher or advanced student

Its a push or a punch without velocity you guys decide; either way, it is different. I did have some JKD guy (a Vietnamese guy named Paul somthing or other) have me hold a phone book while he performed the act. It knock me back and blah blah blah, but if you think about what a punch is... A fist traveling at a relativly high speed. The one inch "punch" ain't that. It is more about launching your body. You aren't going to show me anything about punching with that tech. You may hurt me, but it won't change the fact that you are pushing with your fist.
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

The existance of the one inch punch is not what I question. I question the name punch. Its not, it won't be, nor has it ever been a punch. Launching ones body will never be the swinging of a punch. It is a plunch if you will. I love to stretch the limits of a word, but the buck stops here.:soapbox:
Sean

 

[Rich Parsons]

Force equals Mass times Acceleration. or F=M*A

So, I can throw a really fast punch with just my arm and get a value of F(1) = Mass(Arm) * A(Arm Speed)

I can also throw a 1 inch punch with my whole body behind it generate power.

F(2) = Mass(Body) * A(1 Inch)

I believe I can hit you from 1 inch hard enough to bruise you. As long as I use my body mechanics.

Now, if we look at relative comparisons here. Weight of Arm is about 20 lbs (* Guessing High *) and weight of my body is 285 lbs (* Yes, I have lost 6 lbs Paul *). So ratio of Mass(Arm) to Mass(Body) is 20/285 or 1 to 14.25

Your arm span is your height (* See some trivai thread by Tess *), and I will guess each arm to be about 35% of that. I am 6'3" or 75 inches. 35% of 75 is 26.25. So the comparison of 26.25 Inches to 1 inch gives us a ratio of 26.25/1

These are all rough numbers.

So, yes, given a punch coming from your shoulder to half way extended you can generate more force for the impact than from one inch away.

Yet, I still contend that I can generate enough force do cause you damage. Now wil it break or cripple you? No, and I do not think the one inch punch is designed for that. It is designed in my mind two fold. First to help the person to generate proper body mechanics. Second, To be able to generate power when needed from a short distance for self defense.

:asian:

 

[Brother John]

When striking with any 'knuckles' I hit with the first two.
Alignment
strength
power delivery....
but
I've never practiced or learned a style that strikes any differently.
Punch with what you wana...
I will too.


Your brother
John

 

[Touch Of Death]

One benefit that punching with the whole fist or the bottom three knuckle is to regulate force. Not every punch is meant to hurt your opponent. Some systems of Shorinji Kempo slip the verticle punch to the ribs simply for the reaction. Once the opponenent is startled with the light but solid punch to the ribs, they stiffen. This makes the contact manipulation idea work. The demonstration I was shown dealt with a lot of flipping. I still disagree with the weapon, because a proper weapon can serve the same purpose. I just have a choice to blast through a rib cage for a knock out. Its a philosophy thing. One punch is a key the other a master Key.
Sean

 

[bob919]

i can attain almost as much speed in 2 inches as i can with a long arm punch as can most advanced wing chun practitioners. that said not many people are gonna just leave your hand an inch infornt of your chest are they!

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by bob919
i can attain almost as much speed in 2 inches as i can with a long arm punch as can most advanced wing chun practitioners. that said not many people are gonna just leave your hand an inch infornt of your chest are they!

Sure you can:shrug: , and yes, it is just a trick meant to illistrate how much our punches rely on the launching of our bodies. Put the two toguether and you really got something don't you?
Sean

 

[Chronuss]

I'm with TOD on this one...punching with the bottom knuckles throws the entire arm out of alignment...not to mention the stress on the bones from an impact...that's what causes broken bones..