Which knuckles?

[monk64]

When I studied Kenpo, I was taught that punches should hit with the top two knuckles (index finger and ring finger). The stated reason was to provide maximum power through forearm alignment as well as penetration (concentrating force on a small area). There was also the concern that the other fingers were easier to break.

Recently I was talking to a Wing Chun guy who said that they hit with the bottom three knuckles (middle, ring, pinkie). The stated reason...maximum power through forearm alignment and to avoid breaking the hand

Although they're different styles, I'm wondering what the truth is here. Definitely not trying to start a style vs style "which is better" war but rather asking if there is any objective truth/science/studies about which knuckles are best to hit with and why two different arts could come to different conclusions for the same reason?

(I'm aware there are still other styles where neither of these approaches are used - San Soo hits with the forearm/hammer fist/middle "knocking" knuckles only for example).

 

[MilkManX]

I think either way works. I do Enshin Karate and we use the two big knuckles.
I did take some Wing Chun/Jeet Kune do and they used the bottom 3.

Either one works.

 

[geezer]

I don't know of any scientific studies on the subject that take into accout the partitcular structures and alignments of these systems. WC has a structures and kinetic linkages that work best striking with the bottom three knuckles of the vertical fist. Other systems use different structures and alignments and correspondingly, hit with other parts of the fist.

Don't be confused by things that look similar on the surface but are in fact very different. When you compare the Kenpo vertical fist to Wing Chun's vertical fist, you are comparing apples to oranges.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I suspect that there are a number of ways to make a fist and hit with it correctly. Both fist formation and striking surfaces seem to vary amongst styles, but I have not yet seen any that simply don't work for them.

I found this interesting - pertains mostly to those who hit with the top two knuckles, I suppose.

http://fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=215

 

[Noah_Legel]

From my own analysis (because I've been asked this question before ) striking with the top two knuckles provides a smaller, harder striking surface than the bottom three so it hurts more to be struck with, and the hand structure supporting the top two knuckles is stronger than the hand structure supporting the bottom three. The other side of that, however, is that in order to use the top two knuckles your wrist is held at an angle where it is not very strong, and so it must be strengthened over time, but in order to use the bottom three knuckles your wrist is locked into a very strong position by default.

If you aren't focused on causing more pain with your strikes and are worried about hurting your wrist, punch with the bottom three. If you want your punches to hurt your target more and are worried about hurting your hand, punch with the top two. If you wear wraps and gloves to protect your wrists and hands then it is much less important, but I find that most gloves seem to be intended for using the bottom three knuckles because the surface is flatter and fits a glove better.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

From my own analysis (because I've been asked this question before ) striking with the top two knuckles provides a smaller, harder striking surface than the bottom three so it hurts more to be struck with, and the hand structure supporting the top two knuckles is stronger than the hand structure supporting the bottom three. The other side of that, however, is that in order to use the top two knuckles your wrist is held at an angle where it is not very strong, and so it must be strengthened over time, but in order to use the bottom three knuckles your wrist is locked into a very strong position by default.

If you aren't focused on causing more pain with your strikes and are worried about hurting your wrist, punch with the bottom three. If you want your punches to hurt your target more and are worried about hurting your hand, punch with the top two. If you wear wraps and gloves to protect your wrists and hands then it is much less important, but I find that most gloves seem to be intended for using the bottom three knuckles because the surface is flatter and fits a glove better.

Look more closely. The top two knuckles are not even; the middle protrudes slightly if the fist is held vertically. Angle the fist down at a very slight angle and you see that both the top two knuckles then line up perfectly and at the same time, the top of the hand (again in a vertical fist) is in line with the major bones of the arm. I personally find that the thumb placed on top of the index finger's middle knuckle, as we do in Isshin-Ryu, gives stability.

Of course, I also tend to practice hitting with a relaxed fist, making it hard at the moment of impact or actually letting the impact form the fist for me. I haven't hurt my wrist from punching a bag in a long time.

 

[seasoned]

As with anything across systems and styles, there are differences.

By asking the question below, it in effect, could cause a stir among an other wise respectful group.

Although they're different styles, I'm wondering what the truth is here. Definitely not trying to start a style vs style "which is better" war but rather asking if there is any objective truth/science/studies about which knuckles are best to hit with and why two different arts could come to different conclusions for the same reason?

With that said, these hand positions as well as many other differences have stood the test of time. My suggestion is to pick a style, pick a school, pick an instructor, and do what they do to the letter. It won't take long before you will be doing what works best for you, as it is with everyone here you are asking.

With that said, I an interested in the answers also.

 

[Punchy]

Look more closely. The top two knuckles are not even; the middle protrudes slightly if the fist is held vertically. Angle the fist down at a very slight angle and you see that both the top two knuckles then line up perfectly and at the same time, the top of the hand (again in a vertical fist) is in line with the major bones of the arm. I personally find that the thumb placed on top of the index finger's middle knuckle, as we do in Isshin-Ryu, gives stability.

Of course, I also tend to practice hitting with a relaxed fist, making it hard at the moment of impact or actually letting the impact form the fist for me. I haven't hurt my wrist from punching a bag in a long time.

We do this in WT as well.

 

[geezer]

Bill, thanks for that interesting article on the alternative fist structure used at advanced levels in some Karate systems. In Wing Chun you will also see an alternative fist structure from time to time with advanced practitioners. It usually appears after the advanced hand set "Biu Tze" has been taught. In the Biu Tze form of many WC/WT/VT groups, the "phoenix-eye fist" is used in certain movements. This is a common technique in many systems of Southern Chinese Boxing in which contact is made with the protruding first knuckle of the index finger. In some systems this is a rigid or "hard-style" technique, but in most WC the knuckle is held looser or more softly and is used exclusively to hit vulnerable, soft-tissue targets like the eye and throat.

At any rate, after these techniques are practiced for some time, you will see a tendency for many master level WC practitioners to hold their fist with the this top knuckle held very loosely and protruding slightly even when hitting with the standard fist (bottom three knuckles). Also, experienced practitioners tend to hold the whole fist in a much more relaxed fashion than less experienced students.

As with the alternative form of the karate fist described in Bill's post, using this alternative standard fist in WC gives an advantage, but also comes with a certain risk. This more relaxed fist enables a senior practioner to maximize his release of energy by eliminating unwanted tension, but it demands that the structure of the strike be more perfect, since with less support an incorrectly aligned strike could result in injury to the striker's wrist.

Now to get back to the OP, it should be pointed out that the actual "phoenix-eye fist" in Wing Chun (not the "alternative" standard fist described above) is delivered with the fist rolling downward and the force exiting through the top knuckle and not the bottom three. In this sense it is aligned more like the kenpo fist described.

Here's a picture of a phoenix eye fist I found on Google. For the "alternative" standard fist I described above, imagine something a lot more relaxed, about half-way between the typical flat-front WC fist and what is shown here.

 

[Noah_Legel]

Look more closely. The top two knuckles are not even; the middle protrudes slightly if the fist is held vertically. Angle the fist down at a very slight angle and you see that both the top two knuckles then line up perfectly and at the same time, the top of the hand (again in a vertical fist) is in line with the major bones of the arm. I personally find that the thumb placed on top of the index finger's middle knuckle, as we do in Isshin-Ryu, gives stability.

Of course, I also tend to practice hitting with a relaxed fist, making it hard at the moment of impact or actually letting the impact form the fist for me. I haven't hurt my wrist from punching a bag in a long time.

With all due respect, I never said that the top two knuckles were even, nor did I state that they did not line up with the major bones of the arm. What you said is true but not relevant to my post--having the bones aligned means that there is an efficient transfer of power and solid structure behind the strike, yes, but it does not mean that it is a strong position for the wrist. My point was that by holding the fist at an angle to strike with the top two knuckles you put your fist at an angle that is difficult for the muscles and tendons of your forearm to support. All that said, I do punch with the top two knuckles and I also punch with a relaxed fist and tighten on impact. Unlike you, however, I still occasionally have my wrists give out on me if I punch too hard or land at a bad angle, so I have to work on strengthening the musculature that supports my wrist more than I would if I struck with the bottom three knuckles. You have been training for much longer than I have, so of course it makes sense that you would not have hurt your wrists on a bag in a long time--the longer you train, the stronger that supporting tissue is going to be.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

With all due respect, I never said that the top two knuckles were even, nor did I state that they did not line up with the major bones of the arm. What you said is true but not relevant to my post--having the bones aligned means that there is an efficient transfer of power and solid structure behind the strike, yes, but it does not mean that it is a strong position for the wrist. My point was that by holding the fist at an angle to strike with the top two knuckles you put your fist at an angle that is difficult for the muscles and tendons of your forearm to support. All that said, I do punch with the top two knuckles and I also punch with a relaxed fist and tighten on impact. Unlike you, however, I still occasionally have my wrists give out on me if I punch too hard or land at a bad angle, so I have to work on strengthening the musculature that supports my wrist more than I would if I struck with the bottom three knuckles. You have been training for much longer than I have, so of course it makes sense that you would not have hurt your wrists on a bag in a long time--the longer you train, the stronger that supporting tissue is going to be.

Fair enough, but I've only been training for four years. I'm a Ni-Kyu in Isshin-Ryu. From your resume, it looks like you have much more time in than I do. I just started later in life than most people do. And I have a military/LEO background, so I've had a few punchups in my life.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Here's a picture of a phoenix eye fist I found on Google. For the "alternative" standard fist I described above, imagine something a lot more relaxed, about half-way between the typical flat-front WC fist and what is shown here.

We call that formation an 'Ichi Knuckle' and we use it in various forms of blocks that incorporate strikes, usually with a whip-like or snapping motion of the wrist. Applied to the nerve centers on top of the forearm, the ribs (used for a punch or a 'rub'), in the opponent's eyes, etc. Works good to the jawline as well (ask me sometime where my lower molar went). We also use the middle knuckle instead of the index finger knuckle, just personal preference.

 

[seasoned]

Some fist strikes snip out and back causing a shock wave into internal organs. Using the first two knuckles as stated. Not all fist strikes are thrust and stick hits. Back fist is a great example of hitting while the wrist is bent and snapping.

 

[Cyriacus]

TKD aside, I believe in the first Three knuckles. I find whenever I punch something, while the first two hit first, the third always slips in there. Sure, I have slightly big knuckles. But having asked a couple of people, I seem to be somewhat right.

 

[Big Don]

I don't know of any scientific studies on the subject that take into accout the partitcular structures and alignments of these systems. WC has a structures and kinetic linkages that work best striking with the bottom three knuckles of the vertical fist.

This made me laugh. I'd love to see some studies like that.

 

[Zenjael]

What I've been taught, is to strike with both the index finger knuckle with 90% of the impact directed to that point, with 10% to the secondary knuckle for it to support and strengthen. I have learned from a WC practitioner to use the bottom 3 knuckles (two of which I broke on my right hand when much angrier and punched something I shouldn't) but this requires proper alignment, especially with arms and kinetic linkage as mentioned earlier. I know a silat practioner who has a brutal downward strike where he uses primarily the pinky knuckle, which I've always been led to believe the weakest knuckle, but is deceptively destructive. The middle knuckle I've found is generally used primarily for punches which aim to seperate ribs, or strike tendons. I'm not entirely sure why, perhaps it has greater mass so gives more crushing power.

Personally, I've found that palm strikes are more preferable overall to punching with a ball of joints (but you should still condition those fragile hands). With enough practice the same energy deliverance can be used with virtually all 4 areas in the hand. Bas Ruten has a particularly quick strike where he uses the palmar area of the palm to the temple. Very effective, almost as much as a ridge hand I'd imagine.

 

[MantisTLK]

i am in the same boat as zenjael, if i can strike someone without using my knuckles i will. i also find it's easier for me to transfer my energy into my opponent with open hand techniques and it does less damage. If i can end a conflict without doing any real damage i will, to me, if i'm striking with a fist i am trying to hurt them. I wasn't going to bring it up but since it's already on the table, I strike with the phoenix eye as well as the typical shotokan fist, folded fist i guess it was? I don't use the phoenix eye as an actual punch, i'm pretty sure if i tried to do this i would either lose the structure of the fist on contact or break my index finger, so when i do utilize this fist its always at close range, when my hand is already very close to the target. Since the point of contact is so small the damage is multiplied. I'm sure you guys already understand this so i won't go into more detail unless someone asks, but i think this is a great discussion!
please continue

 

[PoolMan]

Bare knuckle boxing hand positioning tutorial by one of my instructors.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4F2wLgyTm54&list=UUu2sqFx6A4wOIGHChC8xfDg&index=13&feature=plpp_video

 

[GaryR]

Open hand is the way to go. The palm / open hand is a very powerful thing, and unlike the knuckles, it's very hard to break, chip, bruise, ect.

The palm heal, and I believe specifically the "pisiform" bone can
transfer more power per square inch as knuckles. Moreover, if the hand is open it is also easier to grab, and control. Most of the time, it just doesn't make sense to use a closed fist,
unfortunately many systems lack such foundational skill sets.

G